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Each model => Espace => Topic started by: José V. Gavilá on January 23, 2007, 03:44:02 pm



Title: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: José V. Gavilá on January 23, 2007, 03:44:02 pm
Hello!

Well, after almost two years of ownership, my Espace is really sick  :(

Since I bought it, coolant level tended to go low. As there were no signs of oil in coolant nor the reverse, I thought an small visible leak at the main radiator was the culprit. In fact, in summer 2005, I added some sealant powder to the coolant and it seemed to eliminate the leak. It 'returned' some months ago and I was planning to wait for due cambelt replacement (car has 98.000km) to do all the work same time.

But last Friday I found some kind of foam-looking residue at the inner top of the expansion tank... and it seems to me as oil mixed with coolant :( (I checked it and water disolves part of it, to leave just oil)

It has never been overheated (at least in my ownership). Are these engines prone to headgasket problems?. Or am I looking at a more expensive problem?. Because a friend with a 3.0 24V Citroen XM had similar sympthoms and ended with a block-damaged engine!

Please, any comment welcomed!

JOSE


Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: Anders Dinsen on January 23, 2007, 10:18:13 pm
Hi Jose

Great to hear from you again! I remember when you got your car, and I'm really sorry to hear that you have this kind of problems now...

I do not think there are any known problems as such with head gaskets other than what you find in any other car. At least I haven't heard of anything.

But coolant in the oil or oil in the coolant is certainly an indication of problems. Is it only going one way (e.g. only oil to coolant) or both?

I think you will need to get the engine out to check it carefully now anyway - and do the cam belt too. In fact, here in Denmark the instruction is to replace the cam belt every 4 years whether or not it has covered the 120,000 km and since a cam belt is partly made of rubber, I think this instruction makes very good sense.

In other words, get it out and look for the problem.

Your friends experience may not be related to you at all, but this depends on whether his engine is actually the same as yours or the (AFAIK problematic) 90 degrees PRV V6 engine with 24 valve heads. Wikipedia has an article on the XM showing both engines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citroen_XM#Engines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citroen_XM#Engines)

I really hope it will work out well for you, Jose!

- Anders



Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: José V. Gavilá on January 24, 2007, 12:16:47 pm
Hello Anders,

Thanks for your message!

By now, there is ONLY oil in the coolant. Oil by itself is clean of coolant.

Yes, I was going to order a cambelt replacement as I knew it was an 'engine-out' procedure and now it is the right moment. I plan to ask for:

  • Headgasket work
  • Cambelt and cambelt tensioners replacement
  • Water pump replacement
  • Auxiliary belt replacement
  • Radiator replacement (it has an small visible leak and, once engine is out, it should be easy)
  • Complete and detailed coolant circuit cleaning: I have done it by myself in other cars and it has been always a good thing. And now, having mixed coolant and oil, is a must.
  • Autobox oil change and inspection.
  • And, of course, oil, oil filter and air filter replacement.

Any other thing you would do once engine is out?

I know I will need to invest roughly about 3000 Euro  :o  but car is otherwise in very good shape and it is now the only vehicle I own capable of transporting all the family (we are 6 members).

Of course, I will keep you updated of the repair.

Best regards,
JOSE
http://jvgavila.com (http://jvgavila.com)


Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: Anders Dinsen on January 24, 2007, 01:50:29 pm
Hi Jose

Spark plugs are included in that service too and are *impossible* to replace without taking the engine out (or at least lowering it). That's not a big problem since they don't wear much, but still.

It's a very good idea to replace the gear box oil!
You will also need to replace the air condition coolant.

Good luck with it!

- Anders


Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: José V. Gavilá on January 29, 2007, 09:54:44 am
Hi Anders,

Thanks for your comments. I have noted your additions and will take the Espace today to Renault... I am really afraid of what could be wrong  :'(

*** ANOTHER (UNRELATED?) PROBLEM ***

Well, another problem my Espace has since I got it is that when starting from cold, it does fine. But then, after the 'auto starter' stops working (about a couple minutes later) it usually stalls. If car is running, you notice engine stops but restarts due to car's movement. But if you are on an stop light, it just stops. And then, restarting is very difficult.

Also when car is stopped when engine is hot and then restarted not immediately, it is also difficult.

I would like to know if these sympthoms happen in other V6 24V units or if you have any clue of what could cause that. I am guessing several possibilities: bad idle valve, bad temperature sensor, bad engine ECU  :(, ...

Thanks and best regards,

JOSE


Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: Will Falconer on January 29, 2007, 10:42:37 am
Well, another problem my Espace has since I got it is that when starting from cold, it does fine. But then, after the 'auto starter' stops working (about a couple minutes later) it usually stalls. If car is running, you notice engine stops but restarts due to car's movement. But if you are on an stop light, it just stops. And then, restarting is very difficult.

Mine does this too! But I've been ignoring the problem for 4 months now and actually it's gone from stalling every morning to maybe once in two weeks. I think it's either an idle adjustment or a temperature sensor causing the problem. With mine it happens just as the temp gauge goes from one bar to two.

Will


Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: Anders Dinsen on January 29, 2007, 10:53:30 am
Well, another problem my Espace has since I got it is that when starting from cold, it does fine. But then, after the 'auto starter' stops working (about a couple minutes later) it usually stalls. If car is running, you notice engine stops but restarts due to car's movement. But if you are on an stop light, it just stops. And then, restarting is very difficult.

It's the water temperature sensor that's faulty. There's no idle adjustment to make anywhere. It has been a periodic problem for us too! 8)

- Anders
Mine does this too! But I've been ignoring the problem for 4 months now and actually it's gone from stalling every morning to maybe once in two weeks. I think it's either an idle adjustment or a temperature sensor causing the problem. With mine it happens just as the temp gauge goes from one bar to two.

Will


Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: Will Falconer on January 29, 2007, 12:30:19 pm
Thanks again Anders!




Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: José V. Gavilá on January 29, 2007, 04:36:52 pm
Hello Anders,

It's the water temperature sensor that's faulty. There's no idle adjustment to make anywhere. It has been a periodic problem for us too! 8)

Great news!!!. So I was not too far from the truth ;) (I wrote bad idle valve, bad temperature sensor, bad engine ECU, ...)

I have just returned from Renault and have told them to check for that also... I will gave them the 'hint' in case they didn't know.

Regards,

JOSE


Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999) - another thought
Post by: José V. Gavilá on January 29, 2007, 04:40:47 pm
Hello again!

I have still not found a reason to have a problem in my Espace regarding mixing coolant with oil (and NOT the other way)... headgasket gone without overheating is hard to admit for me  :-\

I have Googled about that and have found that SOME other engines have an OIL COOLER and, when it goes, there is oil in coolant. So, please, do you know if our nice V6 24V engine have such a cooler???

It would be great news if they do  :)!

Thanks again for your great help.

Regards,

JOSE


Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: Anders Dinsen on January 29, 2007, 09:31:09 pm
I'm afraid I will have to disappoint you... there's no oil cooler in our cars :(

- Anders


Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: José V. Gavilá on January 29, 2007, 10:28:55 pm
Hello Anders,

Well, it was a nice possibility  :(

I should receive first news about my Espace on Friday... I will let you know what they tell me.

Regards,

JOSE


Title: No news are NOT good news!
Post by: José V. Gavilá on February 02, 2007, 06:02:49 pm
Hello!

I am desperately waiting for the call from Renault... nothing at all in 5 days  ??? ???

I will call them on Monday!

Regards,

JOSE


Title: UPDATE 5/2/2007
Post by: José V. Gavilá on February 05, 2007, 07:46:00 pm
Hello!

Well, I have some news... not yet too definitive but well. I have talked with the Renault garage and they have taken out both engine heads and have taken them to the head specialist, to check for internal breaks and surface condition... I have asked the mechanic if he had found anything suspicious and answer has been no. I am afraid of a block problem but let's hope it is just a matter of head gaskets!

I will let you know as soon as I have more information... I keep trembling  :'(

Regards,

JOSE


Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: Anders Dinsen on February 06, 2007, 06:32:54 am
Hi José

Fingers are certainly crossed for you here!!

- Anders


Title: UPDATE 12/2/2007
Post by: José V. Gavilá on February 13, 2007, 09:43:28 am
Hello!

Well, I have finally some news... yesterday I got a call from Renault. They have got back both heads ('from the head specialist') and both are fine. This could be good news if the problem was in the headgaskets  :) BUT could be not so good news if problem is inside the engine block  :-\ . They say it is not possible to check that without dismantling engine. Is this true?

I told them to continue with the repair, changing everything which is done at 120.000km (my car has a bit less than 100.000km now). I hope failure was in the headgaskets. If not, I will lose a lot of money for nothing  :'(

Now I expect some days delay (weeks perhaps due to uncommon parts, in words of Renault mechanic)

I will keep you informed!

Regards,

JOSE


Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: Anders Dinsen on February 13, 2007, 01:17:40 pm
Good to hear the news, Jose! And I'm also glad to hear that the cylinder heads are okay. I presume they've looked at the gaskets and not found anything? I've still got my fingers crossed for your car!!

Cheers,
Anders


Title: Espace repaired... BIG SHOCK!!!
Post by: José V. Gavilá on March 13, 2007, 01:14:20 pm
Hello!

I have got today finally the long expected news: my Espace is repaired  :)!

BUT, and it is a BIG BUT, they have told me price for the repair... 5261,20 Euro !!!

As you could imagine, I have got a big shock... I have not yet the details of what they have done, but I know they have not replaced radiator (and I told them expressely to do that, once the car was dismantled!!!). Perhaps to save money  >:(???

I have talked with my contact there in Renault garage (son of the owner) and will talk again later today... but I don't hope for a big discount, if any :(

I am amazed and really surprised; my estimation was about 3000 Euro...

I will let you know what finally happens.

Regards,

JOSE


Title: Re: Espace repaired... BIG SHOCK!!!
Post by: Lennart Sorth on March 13, 2007, 08:13:59 pm
5261,20 Euro !!!

OMG - that's a hard blow! - I'm sorry to hear that.
Hopefully you will be able to cut some sort of deal with them.  What is the market value of the car in Spain ? - 6-7 kEur ? If the bill is more than half of the cars value, then it makes little sense for them to proceed, unless they warn you.

If it is of any comfort, I can tell you that car-taxes in Denmark makes a car like yours worth about 30 kEUR, which makes 5261,20 Euro seem less astronomic.

/Lennart


Title: Re: Espace repaired... BIG SHOCK!!!
Post by: José V. Gavilá on March 14, 2007, 12:07:16 am
Hi Lennart,

5261,20 Euro !!!

OMG - that's a hard blow! - I'm sorry to hear that.
Hopefully you will be able to cut some sort of deal with them.  What is the market value of the car in Spain ? - 6-7 kEur ? If the bill is more than half of the cars value, then it makes little sense for them to proceed, unless they warn you.

If it is of any comfort, I can tell you that car-taxes in Denmark makes a car like yours worth about 30 kEUR, which makes 5261,20 Euro seem less astronomic.

/Lennart

Well, I guess my car could be still valued here at about 9000 Euro... so, it is really more than half its market price  >:(!. I have talked with them and they will call me tomorrow. But, again, I have not big chances of a substantial reduction  :-[.

What is worse is that they will not assure car is fixed  :o , as it could have a block problem. I wonder if this is legal  ??? ???...

Well, I will fight for this!. More on that tomorrow, I hope.

Regards and thanks for your encouragement!

JOSE


Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: Anders Dinsen on March 14, 2007, 02:01:17 pm
Regards and thanks for your encouragement!

If there's anything we can do, let us know. I'm really sorry to hear this has happened.

About the legality of not making a warranty, I tend to agree with you that one would assume when a craftsman does a job, he has a kind of responsibility for what he's done. On the other hand, technically there could have been a hidden problem in the engine block, one that only very careful inspection could show. Fatigue is quite impossible (or at least very difficult) to predict. Their warranty could only cover the work they have carried out and parts they have fitted, e.g. if they have fitted a defective cam belt.

- Anders


Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: José V. Gavilá on March 21, 2007, 12:55:31 pm
Well, finally, after some struggle, I have got an slightly better price... about 4750 Euro (i.e. 10% reduction of asked price). Not too much  :(

I will pickup the Espace tomorrow. Of course, I will check in great detail invoice and will ask why they didn't proceed with all the asked operations (yes, even with that huge amount, some things I asked for have not been done  :'( )

I will let you know what I find!

Regards,

JOSE


Title: REPORT on repaired Espace (was: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999))
Post by: José V. Gavilá on March 22, 2007, 11:47:18 am
Hello my friends,

Well, today was the dreaded day of getting back the Espace. I say dreaded because, based on my relation so far with the Renault service, I was afraid I won't like what I would get... and, sadly, I was completely right  :'(

They have proudly showed me the engine bay... first sight is the poor expansion tank, STILL FULL OF CRUD. Incredible!. A 4.785 Euro repair bill and they have not cleaned it properly!!!. They say they have cleaned it but there is still crud in the hoses. I asked in a written document I gave them, detailing all I wanted to be done in the car to carefully clean the colling circuit. Their solution???. Order a NEW expansion tank and change it only by parts cost. INCREDIBLE  >:(!!!

I asked also for main radiator replacement. Of course, also NOT DONE. To save some money, just in case engine block is damaged.

I also wrote to change auto box oil. NOT DONE  >:(!!!. Because it is a lifelong fluid and was OK. WHAT  :o ??????

In fact, what I wrote was to perform a full 120.000km service, listing operations I thought should be done.

So, please, could somebody let me know what Renault especifies for 120.000km service?. And any other information which shows that auto box oil is NOT lifelong.

Yes, I am really bad about all of this... I am just checking to call Renault Spain and start my complaint.

Regards,

JOSE


Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: Anders Dinsen on March 22, 2007, 12:37:00 pm
Hi José

I asked also for main radiator replacement. Of course, also NOT DONE. To save some money, just in case engine block is damaged.

They do have a point there... but only if they think the block is damaged. I bet it isn't.

Quote
I also wrote to change auto box oil. NOT DONE  >:(!!!. Because it is a lifelong fluid and was OK. WHAT  :o ??????

Well they are right that the instructions on the gearbox instruct NOT to change the oil. Even ZF's product page contain this information.

You probably won't risk much by leaving it in... these gearboxes are very robust and don't fail - I have heard of Mercedes Vitos (same box) that have done 400 kkm on a box. Further, it's only possible to drain about 4 litres of the 9 off the box without taking it apart, so it can only be done halfway anyway.

All that said, however, I had gearbox oil changed (the 4 litres) when I got the car and last summer. This summer I'll leave it in, but next it will be done again.

Quote
In fact, what I wrote was to perform a full 120.000km service, listing operations I thought should be done.

So, please, could somebody let me know what Renault especifies for 120.000km service?. And any other information which shows that auto box oil is NOT lifelong.

I can't give you that, since even ZF (the manufacturer) claims it is! The box is called ZF 4HP20 by the way.

Quote
Yes, I am really bad about all of this... I am just checking to call Renault Spain and start my complaint.

I understand you feel shocked by the bill... they should have told you how the meter was ticking as they went along. But really, José - would you have given up halfway through and dumped the car instead?

Also: Have they wasted your money? They have chosen to not do some things which they thought weren't really necessary (e.g. is the radiator close to worn out? with only 120.000 km on the clock in your climate, I wouldn't think so.).

I'm not sure you will gain anything by replacing the expansion bottle - if there's stuff in the system that shouldn't be there and it doesn't go away on a simple cleaning, then I guess you will need to drain and refill with fresh coolant a few times to really clear the problem.

The bill is horrendous. But it *is* a horrible job getting the engine out of that car. It is horrible to work with overall. It's a wonderful machine, and the car is magnificent, but doing any kind of work on it is a pain. My garage replaced the thermostat on my 24v yesterday. It took them several hours! I've got a bill for a normal service check (160 kkm) of a little less than 1000€, and we have still not cleared the airbag problem - a new airbag computer has been ordered and we are waiting for it's arrival. That will add another 4-500€ to the bill. In a year-and-a-half we will be doing the timing belt and plugs. That will require the engine out and will cost me around 3500€. No, it's not an economic car!

I'm not saying you shouldn't be sorry about the money, I'm only saying that it sounds like the garage have tried to do a reasonably good job.

I'll be in Provence the week following next week... if you fancy a long drive, we can have a cup of coffee together! :D

- Anders 8)


Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: José V. Gavilá on March 22, 2007, 04:11:34 pm
Hello!

There is still something that I forgot to say... they have charged me 565 Euros + VAT for an 'oil radiator'. IF it is a water/oil one, as I suspect, IT COULD BE PROBLEM WAS THERE!. And I told them expressely to check it. They told 'this engine does not use an oil/water cooler'... so, what is that cooler?. ONLY oil???. And, why have they replaced it?

Regards,

JOSE


Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: Anders Dinsen on March 22, 2007, 05:16:27 pm
There is still something that I forgot to say... they have charged me 565 Euros + VAT for an 'oil radiator'. IF it is a water/oil one, as I suspect, IT COULD BE PROBLEM WAS THERE!. And I told them expressely to check it. They told 'this engine does not use an oil/water cooler'... so, what is that cooler?. ONLY oil???. And, why have they replaced it?

Do you have the p/n on the invoice? I might be able to help if you provide that...

Engine oil isn't cooled on these engines, and certainly not with any water-to-oil cooler. Gearbox oil may be, but I don't know.

- Anders


Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: José V. Gavilá on March 22, 2007, 06:33:58 pm
Hello Anders,

There is still something that I forgot to say... they have charged me 565 Euros + VAT for an 'oil radiator'. IF it is a water/oil one, as I suspect, IT COULD BE PROBLEM WAS THERE!. And I told them expressely to check it. They told 'this engine does not use an oil/water cooler'... so, what is that cooler?. ONLY oil???. And, why have they replaced it?

Do you have the p/n on the invoice? I might be able to help if you provide that...

Engine oil isn't cooled on these engines, and certainly not with any water-to-oil cooler. Gearbox oil may be, but I don't know.

- Anders

Well, what I have is 77 01 045230. Is this OK?. And, yes, it seems to be a gearbox cooler... What I think is that it could be oil/water and, if so...  >:( >:( >:( >:(

Regards,

JOSE


Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: Anders Dinsen on March 22, 2007, 08:57:20 pm
Well, what I have is 77 01 045230. Is this OK?. And, yes, it seems to be a gearbox cooler...

I'll check tomorrow and let you know!


Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: José V. Gavilá on March 23, 2007, 11:27:41 am
Hello Anders,

Well, what I have is 77 01 045230. Is this OK?. And, yes, it seems to be a gearbox cooler...

I'll check tomorrow and let you know!

Thanks!!!. Please, let me know ASAP as I plan to go this afternoon to the Renault garage...

Regards,

JOSE


Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: Anders Dinsen on March 23, 2007, 01:36:34 pm
Hi Jose, I checked with my Renault parts supplier and he confirms that it's an oil to water cooler/heater for the automatic gearbox. Its purpose is to heat the gear oil when it's cold, and cool it when it becomes hot. This ensures the correct viscosity of the oil, which is criticial for the function of the gearbox.

You must ask your garage whether they have replaced this on suspicion only, or whether they positively know that it was the source of problems.

In the latter case, I would suspect there would be coolant in the gearbox oil, which would of course have to be drained and replaced. This would show if just a bit of oil is drained off there.

If the oil cooler is replaced on suspicion only, they should have made the decision to do so with you - not by themselves.

It may be a good idea to replace this part - just to be on the safe side - but it certainly doesn't make sense to do so without checking the gearbox oil before or after. If there is coolant in the gearbox, it can ruin it on a short time.

I hope this helps,
- Anders


Title: First visit to Renault garage
Post by: José V. Gavilá on March 23, 2007, 07:08:52 pm
Hi Anders and all readers,

Hi Jose, I checked with my Renault parts supplier and he confirms that it's an oil to water cooler/heater for the automatic gearbox. Its purpose is to heat the gear oil when it's cold, and cool it when it becomes hot. This ensures the correct viscosity of the oil, which is criticial for the function of the gearbox.

You must ask your garage whether they have replaced this on suspicion only, or whether they positively know that it was the source of problems.

In the latter case, I would suspect there would be coolant in the gearbox oil, which would of course have to be drained and replaced. This would show if just a bit of oil is drained off there.

If the oil cooler is replaced on suspicion only, they should have made the decision to do so with you - not by themselves.

It may be a good idea to replace this part - just to be on the safe side - but it certainly doesn't make sense to do so without checking the gearbox oil before or after. If there is coolant in the gearbox, it can ruin it on a short time.

I hope this helps,
- Anders

Yes, it has helped a lot!. Armed with that info, I have gone today to the Renault garage... first, there are several things (not big ones by now) that didn't work properly, so I have started with them.

Problems so far are:

  • Accelerator pedal with some initial resistance which makes driving smootly very hard. They have tried to modify cable routing but without success... I will try my own approach.
  • Whistling noise coming from top left side (looking from front) of engine, under a black cover. It varies with RPM. Doesn't sound as mechanical but some kind of electrical or air escapping noise. Any clue on this?
  • Low oil level warning  :o!. I saw this first yesterday and today has returned... Engine oil stick shows correct level and good looking oil ??? but sometimes digital gauge is wrong (when starting engine, of course). I guess this is a matter of sensor cabling.

As luck would like it, mechanic who did the work was not today at work, due to a relative illness. Well...

One of my main interests was to pick up the old parts. I have got a box full of them!!!. Included on it, there is the famous oil cooler. A curious thing: in the box there is an internal Renault document attached... it shows all the head gasket work parts but NOT the cooler... so I think it was an afterthought  >:( >:(

I have politely (still... I need to keep good relations at least until all faults are fixed  ;) !) asked the car reception clerk about the oil cooler and explained why I was not happy with the idea of it being changed without telling me and, apparently, after head work and also why autobox oil was not replaced. He has assured me oil was in good shape, as he asked the mechanic yesterday about not changing the autobox oil but he didn't know why cooler had been replaced. Once mechanic returns, we can comment, he has told.

Another thing which I wanted to be fixed, when I took the car, but has not been done is the stall when cold problem... somebody commented here it was related to a temperature sensor... I would appreciate if you can tell me which sensor is the faulty one, if you know it. That way, I would order the part directly and have them exchange it (or perhaps myself, as I don't trust them a lot)

I hope whistling noise is not an indication of something important going wrong... I will go with all the family tomorrow for a 200km trip with the Espace... I am a bit worried  :-\ !

Best regards and thanks for your help.

JOSE


Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: Anders Dinsen on March 23, 2007, 09:42:25 pm
Hi Jose


Accelerator pedal with some initial resistance which makes driving smootly very hard. They have tried to modify cable routing but without success... I will try my own approach.
I know that problem and I think the only proper way to fix it is to renew the accelerator cable, but for me it has helped routing it over the airbox inlet instead of the (according to the assembly instructions) correct way, under it. It seems you need to undo the airbox anyway (see below)

Quote
Whistling noise coming from top left side (looking from front) of engine, under a black cover. It varies with RPM. Doesn't sound as mechanical but some kind of electrical or air escapping noise. Any clue on this?

Probably the airfilter not being fitted correctly in the airbox, or something else. Try undoing the lid of the airbox where the filter sits and see if everything looks okay.

Quote
Low oil level warning  :o!. I saw this first yesterday and today has returned... Engine oil stick shows correct level and good looking oil ??? but sometimes digital gauge is wrong (when starting engine, of course). I guess this is a matter of sensor cabling.

Ever since these automatic sensors were introduced many years ago, they have caused as many incorrect warnings, I think, as correct ones. I agree it's probably a wiring problem. Are you sure it is the level warning, and not oil pressure warning?

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One of my main interests was to pick up the old parts. I have got a box full of them!!!. Included on it, there is the famous oil cooler. A curious thing: in the box there is an internal Renault document attached... it shows all the head gasket work parts but NOT the cooler... so I think it was an afterthought  >:( >:(

Sounds likely.

Quote
I have politely (still... I need to keep good relations at least until all faults are fixed  ;) !) asked the car reception clerk about the oil cooler and explained why I was not happy with the idea of it being changed without telling me and, apparently, after head work and also why autobox oil was not replaced. He has assured me oil was in good shape, as he asked the mechanic yesterday about not changing the autobox oil but he didn't know why cooler had been replaced. Once mechanic returns, we can comment, he has told.

Yes, you really need to understand why they have repaced this part.

Quote
Another thing which I wanted to be fixed, when I took the car, but has not been done is the stall when cold problem... somebody commented here it was related to a temperature sensor... I would appreciate if you can tell me which sensor is the faulty one, if you know it. That way, I would order the part directly and have them exchange it (or perhaps myself, as I don't trust them a lot)

Yes, that is the water temperature sensor. It was (finally) exchanged on mine a few days ago, and though I didn't do it myself, as far as I know it is a pain to get access to. You will probably need to remove the entire airbox disconnecting it from the throttle body in order to get to it. Mine had the additional problem of a bad thermostat which caused the engine to run too cold (at least in cold weather we have up here in the North), so that was replaced too.

I don't have the part number, unfortunately.

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I hope whistling noise is not an indication of something important going wrong... I will go with all the family tomorrow for a 200km trip with the Espace... I am a bit worried  :-\ !

It shouldn't take too long time to undo the airbox to get access to the filter, so that should clear the problem. With this car I'd be more worried if the sound comes from the other side of the engine - which is where the timing belt sits ;)

Have a nice trip tomorrow!

- Anders 8)


Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: José V. Gavilá on March 23, 2007, 10:14:51 pm
Hello Anders,

Some clarifications to my previous message:

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Whistling noise coming from top left side (looking from front) of engine, under a black cover. It varies with RPM. Doesn't sound as mechanical but some kind of electrical or air escapping noise. Any clue on this?

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Probably the airfilter not being fitted correctly in the airbox, or something else. Try undoing the lid of the airbox where the filter sits and see if everything looks okay.

I think I didn't specify it right... it is coming from TOP LEFT SIDE, viewing car FROM FRONT!. So it seems the distribution side  :'( :'(

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Low oil level warning  :o!. I saw this first yesterday and today has returned... Engine oil stick shows correct level and good looking oil ??? but sometimes digital gauge is wrong (when starting engine, of course). I guess this is a matter of sensor cabling.

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Ever since these automatic sensors were introduced many years ago, they have caused as many incorrect warnings, I think, as correct ones. I agree it's probably a wiring problem. Are you sure it is the level warning, and not oil pressure warning?

Well, I don't have the user's manual (I would appreciate a copy of it!). What it shows is a blinking oil level scale and icon, with level at lowest part (just one segment lit), just after starting engine.

Regards,

JOSE


Title: Report after a 300km trip
Post by: José V. Gavilá on March 25, 2007, 08:37:28 pm
Hello!

Yesterday I took all the family (wife and four children) and went for a 300km trip with the Espace... As you could imagine, I was not plenty confident about it but, well, there is no better way to check a car as driving it  ;) !!!

Most of the trip was highway and I put the speed control at about 125km/h (so completely legal speed :) ). It used an average of 10.8 l/100km, which is the usual consumption I have always got from the car at (low) highway speeds. I have go to lower 9s on 90km/h roads. On light city traffic, it usually sits at 13 l/100km. I think these are common figures, right?

Well, engine behaved fine, except for a hickup it had, just after restarting on the gas station: while accelerating in the auxiliary lane, for perhaps a quarter of second, engine stopped and then restarted. It produced a big shacking to all of us but nothing else... I guess this is related to the faulty temperature sensor (which also stalled the car a couple times, just after starting it from cold). Any further idea?

But besides those hickup and stallings, everything else went fine. I checked coolant level before the trip with cool engine and again today. Level is exactly the same  :D (I made a pencil mark on the expansion tank). Of course, it has not a clean color, as circuit cleaning was not, IMHO, well done. But at least coolant seems to be kept inside the circuit. Previous to the repair, it lowered about 300-500cc each 500km.

I have found  another gremlin, this time related to the old parts I got from the garage... in the box, there are a couple head gaskets, some old hoses, timing belt, auxiliary belt (two of them?), some tensors, bolts and lots of other small items. Some parts come in the box of the new part. At least mechanic was careful with this. BUT there is a new-in-bag coolant hose!. It is not too large (about 30cm between ends). But, obviously, is a new part in an unopened Renault spare parts bag. Price is about 12 Euro, according to the label it has. Did the mechanic forget to change it?. Is it from another car?  ??? ??? ???

All in all, so far, without considering huge invoice and some details, my Espace is back  :D !

I will let you know my advances with the remaining topics...

Regards,

JOSE


Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: Anders Dinsen on March 27, 2007, 10:19:44 pm
Any further idea?

With the work your Renault garage has done, I guess you can take it back to them. The computer will have a fault code registered and they can diagnose it by attaching the diagnostic tool.

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Previous to the repair, it lowered about 300-500cc each 500km.

Well it's good to hear that that's fixed!

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Did the mechanic forget to change it?

Not unlikely. It could have been part of a kit, but if the old hose is okay, there's no reason to replace it. I've got 25 year old hoses in my Murena that are still going strong.

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All in all, so far, without considering huge invoice and some details, my Espace is back  :D !

Congratulations! It's a wonderful car - when it runs ;)

- Anders 8)


Title: TOMORROW IS THE DAY!!!
Post by: José V. Gavilá on May 24, 2007, 11:19:21 pm
I am completely fed up  >:( >:( >:( !!!

As you probaly remember, one of the things I was worried when I took the car to the Renault thieves was the autobox oil, which I asked to be replaced... and they didn't. Reason was that it is a lifelong oil and does not need replacement.

Well, I have today found the truth (looking at the Renault Espace Service Manual): there are two different oils in the autobox: one in the mechanism oil which SHOULD BE REPLACED EACH 60.000km and the other one, final drive, which is lifelong.

Adding this to all the other problems I had with the repair, I will go tomorrow to the Renault thieves cave and will place a formal complaint. They changed parts which were not necessary or meant they had not found the real cause for the engine problem (I am referring to oil/water radiator replacement). They didn't properly clean the cooling circuit. There is a whistling noise coming from engine. And so on...  :( :( :(

I am really sad about all of this and, trust me, I will get things right  >:( >:( >:( >:( !!!

Well, sorry for the rant but I needed to tell someone!

Regards,

JOSE


Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 25, 2007, 12:07:57 am
Hi José

I respect your need to rant.

But I think you are wrong here. Even in their generic specifications, ZF specifies that the complete gearbox (ZF 4HP20) is filled with auto oil for life. This is unlike the gearbox that preceeded the 4HP20 (and the 24v engine) in the Espace, which was a Renault gearbox and (as far as I know) this one had regular oil changes prescribed.

I beleive that even Mercedes Vito's have these gearboxes specified for lifelong oil. Like it or not - I personally don't like the idea and will have it done every other year on my car.

- Anders





Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: José V. Gavilá on May 25, 2007, 11:18:03 am
Hi Anders,

Hi José

I respect your need to rant.

But I think you are wrong here. Even in their generic specifications, ZF specifies that the complete gearbox (ZF 4HP20) is filled with auto oil for life. This is unlike the gearbox that preceeded the 4HP20 (and the 24v engine) in the Espace, which was a Renault gearbox and (as far as I know) this one had regular oil changes prescribed.

I beleive that even Mercedes Vito's have these gearboxes specified for lifelong oil. Like it or not - I personally don't like the idea and will have it done every other year on my car.

- Anders

Well, could be... anyway, I have just returned from Renault garage. And, incredibly, I am (relatively) happy  :o :o :o

I have arrived there and the responsible of the mechanics was not there nor the person I know, who is the son of the owner. Great, I have thought  :( !

But who was there today was the mechanic who did the work on my car. I had a printed list of all the problems I have found so far. Main remaining question was why did they change the water/oil radiator?. And he has been sincere :o , telling me that this was after they found heads were perfectly fine!. As I suspected... What I have liked of all of this is that, first, mechanic seems a very competent one and, second, he has not tried to fool me.

So I have talked about all remaining details, leaving the complaint for the management people, another day.

Summing up, what I have found and we have checked on site is:

  • Whistling noise: it seems to come from an air hose, at the left side (front looking). Will be fixed.
  • Stalling engine: I have told him about the temperature sensor theory and he has told me it is very probably the cause. Good thing is that engine has stalled while we were talking  :)
  • Cooling circuit dirt: they will replace the expansion tank and clean the circuit. Good thing is that level has been OK so far for 800km :D
  • Leaking heater matrix: I have suggested to try a leaking liquid, as they are going to change coolant anyway... in case it doesn't work, I will do it the proper way myself.
  • Some other small bits (as accelerator pedal stifness): they will fix them.

I have left the Espace again there  :o ... I still need to negotiate with managing people about the repairs (the first one and this one). But at least now I know the person who will work on my car and I trust he is a good mechanic (he has driven me home and we have been talking about other mechanical things, engines and so on)

All in all, I am happy with the visit and hope finally things will end in a more satisfactory way  :)

Best regards and thanks for listening my comments!

JOSE


Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 26, 2007, 01:53:15 pm
Hi José

Good to hear that you got the communication going, that's really necessary. Far too often, I think, garages keep customers away from the mechanics. Consequence is dissatisfied customers, problems not getting fixed etc. It is a pity that it took so long for you to get where you are now.

About the dirt and the radiator sealant... if you pour sealant in the system you will have a big job afterwards cleaning it. Then why clean it and replace the header tank now? :)

The accelerator pedal sometimes goes stiff on mine and I've found that it's the cruise control that somehow "locks up" and will not allow air out of the valve that pulls the throttle. It's a bit annoying, but when it happens, all I have to do is to release the pedal a slight bit, then it's free. Apart from that, the cable itself is also a bit sticky. I have found that if I route it over the airbox then there are fewer bends on it and it is less sticky. It could also be that we just need a new cable.

Temperature sensor seems to be a routine thing ;) They just go all wrong and suddently detect -33 degrees coolant temperature. The diagnostics will show it while it's running.

I really understand your frustrations.

Fingers crossed ;)

- Anders



Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: José V. Gavilá on June 19, 2007, 06:37:06 pm
Hi Anders and all Forum Members,

Hi José

Good to hear that you got the communication going, that's really necessary. Far too often, I think, garages keep customers away from the mechanics. Consequence is dissatisfied customers, problems not getting fixed etc. It is a pity that it took so long for you to get where you are now.

About the dirt and the radiator sealant... if you pour sealant in the system you will have a big job afterwards cleaning it. Then why clean it and replace the header tank now? :)

The accelerator pedal sometimes goes stiff on mine and I've found that it's the cruise control that somehow "locks up" and will not allow air out of the valve that pulls the throttle. It's a bit annoying, but when it happens, all I have to do is to release the pedal a slight bit, then it's free. Apart from that, the cable itself is also a bit sticky. I have found that if I route it over the airbox then there are fewer bends on it and it is less sticky. It could also be that we just need a new cable.

Temperature sensor seems to be a routine thing ;) They just go all wrong and suddently detect -33 degrees coolant temperature. The diagnostics will show it while it's running.

I really understand your frustrations.

Fingers crossed ;)

- Anders


Well, finally after some time (three and a half long weeks since I left it!), I have gone today to pick up my Espace... so long delay has been in part due to a trip to USA I have done in last two weeks, but it seems it took almost 2 weeks to deal with my car...

I asked them to do several things:
  • Fix whistle engine noise: done!. It was an air leak.
  • Add sealant to coolant circuit (to fix heather matrix leak), flush it, replace expansion tank: done!... and it seems heater doesn't leak :o
  • Check stiffness in accelarator pedal: done!. Now it is smooth :)
  • Change temperature sensor (to prevent stalling and bad starting when warm/hot): done!. Car no longer stalls and always starts  ;D
  • Add a couple of forgotten screws to wheel cover: done!
  • Change autobox oil: done! (yes, I know it could be lifelong... but having replaced the oil/coolant radiator, I feel better this way)

I have paid parts (expansion tank, oil, sealant, sensor, coolant,....) and just one hour labour (flushing circuit). Still, price has been about 250 Euro... but I am happy as all my complaints seem to be fixed by now  :D

Anyway, I will have a meeting with mechanic and garage responsible to talk about the first repair, as I plan to ask for some money back regarding it. I will let you know what happens!

All in all, I am again a happy Espace owner  ;D

Regards,

JOSE


Title: Re: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 19, 2007, 10:41:50 pm
All in all, I am again a happy Espace owner  ;D

It's great to have you back in that state. And you are also now a much more experienced Espace owner.

- Anders :)