MatraSport Forum

Yesterday after a short drive to the petrol station, school and then home, my Murena was dripping coolant from the engine  :o

It looks like it's coming from the area between the cam chain cover and the engine block, right where the primary water channel enters the engine block.

The timing is horrible, just now the weather clears up and I would want to take her out! The good thing is that I saw it - if I had been going on a long jurney, it could have boiled the engine  :o now it seems "all" I need to do is to take the head off and refit the cam chain cover on the engine block - that's a project I can do at home.

But still... :(

Waldo, please don't mention anything about reliability, will you?

- Anders  8)

Oh sorry to hear about your misfurtune Anders... Well I was actually thinking about bringing up the subject myself as I was reading the start of your post, but it's no use now that you mentioned it yourself  ;)

I know the feeling of unwanted problems poping up at the most unconvinient times as I used to drive a Fiat Ritmo (diesel of course)!
It was as slow as a 2CV and made the noise of tractor but I still think of it as my best car ever! Probably because it was my first ever car and did 22km/l  ;D

Thanks! :D

Here's a photo I took yesterday evening showing what I suspect is the problem. This is the back of the engine, there's a bit of the exhaust manifold showing in the upper left corner. The aluminum is the cam chain cover. The main water channel is under that date stamp.

I haven't had time to fire the engine up to see if I'm correct.

It may be possible to remove the cam chain covers without removing either the head or much other, but let's see how it turns out. I've got Roy Gillard on the line to assist with the procedures.

(http://tmp.dinsen.net/vandproblem/DSCF0001markups.jpg)

I also feel sorry for you Anders. but look at the bright sides:

1) its much easier for you to get under the car now the snow has melted
2) there is atill most of the spring left
3) you didn't boil the engine (I've been there!)

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

/Lennart

My sympathy to you too. Best of luck.

I boiled my engine and it seems OK now.

Hello Anders,
You don't need to demount the cyl.head! You can easilly (well not easilly if Your hands aren't from rubber :D ) demount the water pump, than upper cover (first demount the distributor), band-wheel and than simply demount the lower cover. You only must be carefull with the small piece of gasket between upper and lower covers. Maybe that You will must to demount the lower engine silentblock and release the engine little bit down, but lucky for You - You will have more space for repair :)
The most important is, that You won't must to demount the timing chain and make all set ups after demounting/mounting the cyl.head.
Good Luck!

Hi Michael

It seems that the thing about the head was mostly a misunderstanding between Roy and I - last evening I realised that it shouldn't be necessary, but discussing it with Roy (over e-mail), he was skeptical whether  the cam chain covers could come off with the engine still in the car - he did remember one english club member having done it, though, but has never done it himself.

But tt sounds like you have experience, Michael! :)

I did think it would be possible too - after studying the Tagora engine manual last evening.

I've got a few worries, though:

- Getting the pulley off the crank shaft - I guess it will take a bit of fighting as it will be impossible to get a tool on it to pull it off.

- The top cam cover is fitted on the side of the head in a way that may make it difficult to get off.

- Whether I'll be able to make the sump gasket seal after removing and refitting the lower cover.

- Whether the piece of the head gasket fitting between the two halves will seal again afterwards.

I agree that it's best not to mess with the chain and head as that would bring up all sorts of problems...

Thanks for all the sympathy, everyone :)

- Anders

My experience? Bought my first Murena in April 2002 with damaged camshaft - first repair of the engine. Than I started to drive with it, but after few months the water cooler gone broken and I've boiled the engine = cyl.head was broken - second repair of the engine. I paid for welding the head but they brush it more than I though and after few kms the distributor drive was squeezed under the camshaft. It was very ugly damaged because it was seized hard - third engine repair. I demounted the upper cover, took other one and brushed the bottom of it and than it was fine. After 8000 kms welded cyl.head gone broken again :'( so - fourth engine repair. Than was everything fine for cca 2 years till the moment when I made the burnout and the throttle pedal stays blocked on the floor what I find too late - at the same moment when I press the clutch pedal, the engine reached the red torque zone and valves hits pistons... - fifth repair of the engine  ::) And now I am finishing the renovation on my Murena 2,2 S which I bought with damaged engine - sixth repair (and last - I hope!). Well is that enough for experience with Murena engine?  ;D

@ Anders

Needless to say I guess... but I think Michal have done very well to prove my views on the realibility of these old petrol engines...  :P

Hm, I think that these engines ARE reliable - my experience with 2,2 in Tagora, where I have cca 600.000 kms driven (1999-now), but problem is that in the Tagora 70% of cooling is done by water and 30% by wind which going through the front grill around the engine. But in Murena, the air is going from the down side of the space between engine and body, and rear side of the engine is cooled deficiently. If everything is in perfect condition, everything works, but if not, the problem will come very early. 2,2 in Tagora holds everything, but in Murena it is very sensitive.

I really think the murenas reputation as a "hot runner" is exagerated...
My guess is that too many people forget to flush the system and check the if the radiator is clogged with dirt.
Take good care of the standard cooling system and you shoud be fine

Further inspection showed that the cause I pointed out below is quite unlikely, and that it is much more likely that the source of the leak was the thick hose connecting the return pipe from the radiator to the water pump inlet:

(http://tmp.dinsen.net/vandproblem/2007-03-17/DSCF0017s.jpg)

Then why was I seeing water coming from the joint between the chain cover and the block?

I'm quite certain that water was dripping out of the hose in the end by the water pump (the thick end showing above), down on the top of the cover where the long bolt fastening the water pump passes through it and into the block. When looking from above, there's a groove in which the water can flow, and it will end up by the block, spilling over.

I'm replacing that piece of hose now, and then I hope the problem will be fixed. In other words: No engine problem, just 25 year old plumbing! 8)

- Anders

Lucky man!  ;D Problems like these (repaired in 5 minutes) are the best ones :)

Thanks!

Well, it's not exactly a five minute job, but I think I know what you mean. You know, it's a special piece of hose with a 120 degrees bend (or so) and two different sizes either end. It's not the kind of hose you get from your local parts warehouse. Unless I could find a similar piece in a VW or Volvo or something, but I don't have the time to investigate, so I have ordered it from Simon - and he promised to send it Monday, which means that I'll be receiving it later this week.

Besides, now that I have drained the cooling system already (at least halftway I think), I found it was time to renew the two water pipes in the engine room. They are still the original steel ones and this one at least is quite rusty:

(http://tmp.dinsen.net/vandproblem/2007-03-17/DSCF0014s.jpg)

New stainless steel pipes there will match the stainless pipes I have running under the car to the radiator and heater, so that will be "one less thing to worry about".

I'm quite looking forward to going through the refilling procedure (including removing trapped air) - and that will probably also take an hour or so to do.

- Anders 8)

Progress...

(http://tmp.dinsen.net/vandproblem/2007-03-22/DSCF0005s.jpg)

Now sleep..........

Wow! You are very fast man!  :o

Thanks :D

Simon and freight from Germany was fast - ordered Monday, got the parts Wednesday. Can't be much better! I still have a bit of work left: Two brackets on the engine block needs to be fitted to the two pipes, and all pipes and hose connections should be checked and tightened up. By the way, getting the old pipes out was almost the most difficult part - this is one of the things that's better done with the inlet manifold removed. I should probably have done that, but now I've done the worst part. I may not get further tonight as it got late yesterday and there's both family :) and work :( to attend this weekend, but let's see...

- Anders

Yep... I was also very impressed by how fast I got the parts I ordered from Simons.

I got the new hose piece fitted yesterday and started filling coolant in and bleeding the system, but realised there was still water coming out from the hose end connected to the water pump. I finally realised that instead of tightening the clip, the screw was working its way out the back. I ended up fitting a new clip (made from a universal kit) and that immediately fixed it. It's likely that this was the original cause of the problem...

This is the new clip:
(http://tmp.dinsen.net/vandproblem/2007-03-22/DSCF0018s.jpg)

The system looks like it's well bled now, so I'll give the car a good run today - but I'll watch it like a hawk!

I think most will recognise the water spraying out from where I originally suspected the problem to be. This was NOT what I had expected after the test drive. I guess I just back to "square one" :(

Tightening the bolt on the water pump does seem to affect the leak, and sometimes the leak just goes away. Then later it returns. In all cases its smaller than it used to be. All this could just be down to rust in the system getting stuck in the leak, but it's difficult to tell for sure.

Too bad I'm going on holiday next week, so I won't have any time to fix this properly until mid April.

(http://tmp.dinsen.net/vandproblem/2007-03-22/DSCF0027s.jpg)

Aaarrrrrrgh, poor you, - just as spring arrives.

The picture says it all: "Manneken Piss" ! :)

but at least you don't have to trace the leak, its quite apparent.

/Lennart

Excellent analogy! :D

I am going to try to reseal the gasket by reintroducing new gasket sealant in the hole. Interestingly, the leak is nowhere as serious as it was before I did the hose and pipes, perhaps some rust has developed in there. Anyway, as the family and I are starting the Grand Espace on Friday night for a 10 day holiday and there's still a good deal of preparation to do about that, I won't have any time to touch it this week. So even though the procedure isn't that bad, it will have to sit untouched until we get home...

I'm sure there will be a bit of spring left by then, Lennart 8)

- Anders

An update from here...

There wasn't a detectable hole when I investigated today and atteptempted resealing, so it's no surprise that resealing hasn't helped. I think the hole is microscopic.

I'll let it sit untouched overnight, then try tightening the bolts on the water pump a little more. It does seem to have an effect.

I'm still hoping to be able to run without doing the major repair over summer as I have so little time at the moment. Autumn/winter will be better, but I guess I'll just have to wait and see!

- Anders 8)

And another update...

I've been running with the resealed gasket for a week now, and while it was dripping happily when I first sealed it and the sealant was still not hardened, it has kept dry since then. The only problem I have had was a hose clamp that failed causing a small leak... No chain is stronger than its weakest link...!

I have no idea what this sealant does in the hardening process, but it seems to have expanded somewhat and penetrated whatever had cracked/failed.

I haven't tried a longer run in the high revs... I tend to keep her well below 3000 rpm in daily driving and I have deliberately only crossed that a few brief times. RPM makes a big difference in water pressure, so at some point I'll do a long run at high rpm to see if the sealant blows out   :-\

But in daily driving she's running soooo well... she's like an eel in the traffic :D

- Anders 8)