MatraSport Forum

Each model => Espace => Topic started by: ross on May 11, 2007, 03:27:04 pm



Title: remote central locking
Post by: ross on May 11, 2007, 03:27:04 pm
I have a 2.2 turbo diesel grand espace, year of manufacture is 2000(W).
ever since I have owned it, about 18 months now the remote central locking has refused to work.
All the other cars fuctions seem to work correctly but my local renault dealer wanted over 1000 to fix the problem.
I lock the car using the central locking button on the overhead console and the passenger door lock.
I have had the keys checked and the one we normally use is not emitting a signal.
I have purchased a new key fob off of Ebay but I have not had the courage to try and reset the keys using my old working key and the new one I purchased off of Ebay.
Can I align the two key codes or do I have to take them to my dealer?
I would be very grateful for any help you can offer.
regards
Ross



Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: zinx on May 13, 2007, 06:10:07 pm
As far as I know you can only resync the keys which came with the car(but I may be wrong)

To resync keys follow this procedure


1. Switch off the ignition
2. Press the central locking button (either side) for more than two seconds. The doors will lock and unlock.
3. You now have 15 seconds to operate the plip twice within 3 seconds, pointing it at the IR Receiver. The doors will lock and unlock after the second press.
4. If you have a second plip, you need to the same with that one too, and all within the 15 seconds.

Not sure if it will work for you but try it and let us know how you get on


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: roy4matra on July 14, 2007, 02:57:31 pm
All the other cars functions seem to work correctly but my local renault dealer wanted over 1000 to fix the problem...

They must be joking!  What were they planning to do for that amount?  I really would like to know who they are and what they wanted to do, since I will take this up with Renault myself being an RTE.

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I lock the car using the central locking button on the overhead console and the passenger door lock.
I have had the keys checked and the one we normally use is not emitting a signal.

So why continue using that key then?  If it doesn't emit a signal it can never work the remote obviously.  However if the other key is emitting a signal, then simply re-sync it to the car.  You cannot do any damage or stop the key from working (starting the car) if it is working now.  So did you try re-synching the key as per Lennart's instructions and did it work?

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I have purchased a new key fob off of Ebay but I have not had the courage to try and reset the keys using my old working key and the new one I purchased off of Ebay.

How can you get a correct key from eBay?  Did they ask for the vehicle VIN and key code?  These are required to get a key plip that can be synchronised to your car.  Renault do not use a 'blank' plip that can be synchronised to any car with this particular Espace.  So I don't see how they can sell key plips that will work.

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Can I align the two key codes or do I have to take them to my dealer?

If the key plip is the correct one for your chassis and immobiliser then you can re-sync it yourself with this particular vehicle, but Renault have many different systems and many do need dealer equipment and codes to re-configure new keys/plips/cards.

Roy


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: ross on July 15, 2007, 03:42:18 pm
Hi Roy,

Many thanks for your comments on my remote central locking problem.

I have not used the system as described in the reply to my problem as it seemed to refer to the infra red type of central locking system as fitted to earlier models and not the radio type that I have in my espace.

Can I try to elaborate on the problem, as I am not an expert in electronics so my understanding of how the central locking system works is very basic.

When I bought the car, about 18 months ago the private seller said that the problem with the central locking was a dead battery in the key.

I replaced the battery and it of course made no difference, so I took the car to my nearest Renault main agent and they told me that "their computer wouldn't talk to my car computer" so they advised that I have all the elements replaced, computer - dashboard and keys and have the system reprogrammed, all for an estimated minimum cost of 1000.

As there were no other problems with the cars' electronics other that the remote central locking I declined to spend the money, and I have been locing the car as previously described ever since.

My local friendly Renault independant garage have checked both of my keys and this is how I found out that one was not emitting a signal, and as the second key had never been used I was told that the codes were more than likely out of synch.

This is why I bought the key off of Ebay thinking that the good key I had could be synchronised with the new key, but this does not seem to be the case.

If I was sure that the purchase of a new key from Renault, to match the good one I have, and then having them synchronised, would cure my problem I would get it done, but there seems to be no guarantee that this will work, and from my understanding the second of my keys cannot be used in my car without having 2 keys to re-synchronise.

I have been advised that having a new alarm system fitted, for about 300 would give me back the central locking facility, using the new alarm system plips.

I would prefer to stick with the Renault system in the car, but i cannot justify the expense, as quoted by my Renault main agent.

If you would like any more information or clarification just let me know.

Any help you can let me have would be much appreciated.

Many thanks.

Ross


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: roy4matra on July 15, 2007, 11:45:07 pm
Many thanks for your comments on my remote central locking problem.

I have not used the system as described in the reply to my problem as it seemed to refer to the infra red type of central locking system as fitted to earlier models and not the radio type that I have in my espace.

I can understand your doubts Ross but the system is virtually the same as it happens.  The main difference is that you only need to press your plip once where an infra-red plip has to be pressed several times, for each good plip, whilst aiming the infra-red correctly.

The pick up for the remote is combined in the electronic dash panel on your car.  The keys contain two systems, one for unlocking/locking the doors by remote (ultra sonic radio frequency) and a chip that the immobiliser system uses to protect the starting.  When you press the plip it emits a signal which is picked up by the dash and if correct the central locking is operated.  However, whether or not this works, the starting is a separate system entirely, as you know since your car will start.  The chip in the key is 'read' by a reader ring around the ignition switch, so when you put the key in and turn on the code is read, passed to the immobiliser and provided it is correct, the system is unlocked and the engine is authorised to start.

Now the radio key signal for opening the doors, is on a rolling code system.  So every time you press it the code changes.  This is to stop anyone with a radio reader nearby from simply reading the code, and then once you have gone, using that code to open the vehicle. (this was possible on very early non-Renault systems with a fixed code).  One fact of this rolling code system which is not properly explained to owners, is that you must use both keys frequently.  It doesn't matter if you don't use one of them for say a week or two but eventually if it is not used for a long time, the one that is not being used will get so far out of sync. with the rolling (changing) code, that it can no longer work.  As long as they are both used they both stay in sync.  If or when one key does get out of sync. it is fairly simple normally to re-sync. it and then it will work again.

So in all likelihood you just need to synchronise the key that is transmitting and then use that one to open the doors and start the vehicle, and keep the second one as a backup that will at least start the car even though it cannot transmit and therefore work the doors.

I am right in assuming that the good key/plip i.e. the one that will transmit a signal, does start and run the car?  Because if it doesn't you probably do have a serious problem.  So can you first confirm please that both keys can be used to start the car now.

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When I bought the car, about 18 months ago the private seller said that the problem with the central locking was a dead battery in the key.

That might have explained the reason for one key not plip locking but what about the second?  It would be unlikely that both keys go flat at the same time!

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I replaced the battery and it of course made no difference, so I took the car to my nearest Renault main agent and they told me that "their computer wouldn't talk to my car computer" so they advised that I have all the elements replaced, computer - dashboard and keys and have the system reprogrammed, all for an estimated minimum cost of 1000.

Replacing a complete system is only necessary if you have lost both keys.  That is not the case here.  So whilst there may be a problem preventing their computer interfacing with the car computer, I don't rule out that they have simply not done their job properly at this stage.

The first job should have been to synchronise the keys or in your case the one key that is working.  For that they don't need the computers to interface.

So as long as the key that transmits does actually start the car already, proving it is the right key for your car, please follow these steps to attempt to synchronise it:
Unlock the doors manually as you have been doing and sit in the drivers seat.  Put the key in the ignition and turn on.  Do not start the engine just turn the ignition on, and note the warning light.  It should come on for a second then go out.  Now switch off and remove the key from the ignition switch.  Immediately press the central locking button on the overhead panel and hold it pressed (it doesn't matter which side) until you hear the locks go clunk, clunk after about 5 secs.  Then press the plip on the key, and the locks should respond.  At the same time please watch the warning light on the dash.  When you activate the system by pressing the central locking button and holding it for approx. 5 secs. the warning light should have come on.  When you press the plip on the key and the locks respond, the light may go out or stay on.  If it goes out, the key should be synchronised and it wil now work.  If however, the warning light stays on for upto 20 secs. it is waiting for the second key plip to be pressed.  In other words it is configured for two keys and it needs both to reset.  You can try the one that you got off ebay, it might work, but don't expect it to.  If it works with just the one good key, great, and if it works with both even better, but if it works with the one good key and then is waiting for the second, which you haven't got (and the ebay one is no good) then after timing out and the warning light goes out, you will probably find the good key will still not work at this stage.

What has to be done next is to reset the system for one key only, then resync. the one good key plip.  This is possibly where you will need a diagnostic computer to interface with the on-board computer to reset it for one key only.  At this stage, it may still be possible - don't take it for granted that just because the Renault dealer said they couldn't connect, all is lost, as they may not have done things correctly, or used some faulty equipment or software.  There can be many reasons, but let's take it a stage at a time.

Go through the re-sync. procedure as I have described it.  Please note exactly what happens and let me know how you get on.  Also please let me have the car VIN and fabrication numbers as I may need that to get the four digit manual unlock code.

Roy


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: ross on July 16, 2007, 10:15:13 pm
Hi Roy,

Many many thanks for your efforts on my behalf, your explanation of the workings of the alarm/central locking system was wonderfull.

In answer to your question with regard to the spare key; yes it does start the car.

I have just nipped out to the car and run through the procedure, as you described, and have found the following:-

When I turn the ignition on, with the spare key, the flashing red warning light on the dashboard, stops fladshing and then goes out completely.

I then removed the key from the ignition and pressed the overhead central locking button for the time you stated.

I then pressed the key fob and it had no effect on the central locking, but in the mean time the red warning light on the dashboard began to flash again.

I hope my explanation of the events is of help, and if you think it is woth it I will find the VIN and fabrication number tomorrow, sorry I can't do it now but my daughter is leaning over my shoulder waiting to go to bed and as the computer is in her bedroom I must go now.

Regards

Ross


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: roy4matra on July 17, 2007, 02:16:47 pm
In answer to your question with regard to the spare key; yes it does start the car.

O.K. that's good.  At least we know the key is correct and recognised by the car.

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When I turn the ignition on, with the spare key, the flashing red warning light on the dashboard, stops flashing and then goes out completely.

I then removed the key from the ignition and pressed the overhead central locking button for the time you stated.

O.K. the time is not important here.  When you first press the central locking button immediately after switching the ignition off, the locking system will immediately respond as if you were simply locking or unlocking the doors.  However, as you keep holding it down the system will then respond again after approx. 4 - 5 secs normally, with the double clunk sound and the warning light should come back on and stay on.  This shows the system has gone into re-sync. mode.  If it hasn't done this, then you cannot do the re-sync.  So you need to hold the central locking button down until it responds with that double clunk and steady warning light.  Then you press the plip to re-sync.

You don't mention that above.  Did you get that double clunk?  This is different to normal and quite distinctive.

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I then pressed the key fob and it had no effect on the central locking, but in the mean time the red warning light on the dashboard began to flash again.

This sounds to me like you didn't hold the button long enough for the system to enter re-sync. mode.  The warning light flashing was I assume at normal rate, and therefore was simply the immobiliser system going back active as you had turned the ignition off and locked the doors (by pressing the central locking button).

So please try again but hold the button long enough to get the double clunk, and warning light coming on to show you are in re-sync. mode.

If you hold the central locking button down for let's say 20 secs. and it still hasn't gone in to re-sync. mode then it suggests your system has an internal fault.

However, please try again and let me know the result.

Roy


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: ross on July 17, 2007, 10:11:40 pm
Hi Roy,

Once again many thanks for your continued efforts to solve my central locking problems.

I have just returned from another try at re-synchronising the good key, and with my brother in attendance to keep his eye on the dashboard warning light.

Once again I turned the ignition on, until the red dashboard warning light went out, then I turned the ignition off and removed the key.

I then pressed and held down the overhead central locking button, and after the initial clonk of the door locks operating there was a definite additional clonk, as you described.

I continued to hold down the button but the red warning light didn't stay on continuously but resumed flashing at its normal rate.

I tried the plip but it had no effect.

Sorry for the bad news.

Any further thoughts would be most appreciated.

Many thanks

Regards

Ross


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: tka on July 18, 2007, 12:36:30 am
Hi Ross,

Did you notice whether your red warning light flashes at steady rate at all times (when not beeing in the car with engine/ignition on). If the light flashes erratically and sometimes even not at all, you might be seeing early stages (I hate to say it...) of well documented 'year 2000 display and/or B-II' problem. This might also explain your dealers very high cost estimate, since I believe the only Renault cure for now, is to exchange the central display and sometimes the B-II (central computer) as well.

The Display/BII problem seems to be most common on early CAN Espace's (I beleive from mid 1999 onwards), and it often shows as flickering (and eventually not working at all) central display, and non-functioning central locking (unless activated from the inside car button). The problem (when still at periodic stage) happens mostly at cold conditions.

The fault seems to emerge in a particular integrated circuit on the display computer motherboard, but there are reports that the 'infection' at later stages 'spreads' to the B-II central computer (not sure whether I really believe in those latter rumors though...)

As said: For now the only official Renault cure is to more or less exchange electronics. I've managed to 'stretch the life' of a completely non working display be glueing a mutter provided with a 0.8W instrument lightbulb on top of the circuit in question. The display and related electronics still works now after roughly half a year. However, this is surely a hack, and I really don't expect it to last forever. I just hope that one day some clever mechanic manage to specialize in exchanging the exact faulty circuits, and thereby saves me and many other Espace owners for more future 1000 EUR bills!!!

Best Regards
/tka

Thomas Kjr-Andersen, Esp. 2.016V, 2000   


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: roy4matra on July 18, 2007, 05:25:36 pm
Once again many thanks for your continued efforts to solve my central locking problems.

I have just returned from another try at re-synchronising the good key, and with my brother in attendance to keep his eye on the dashboard warning light.

Once again I turned the ignition on, until the red dashboard warning light went out, then I turned the ignition off and removed the key.

I then pressed and held down the overhead central locking button, and after the initial clonk of the door locks operating there was a definite additional clonk, as you described.

Immediately after this is when you need to press the plip to synchronise it (normally).
You could try the process a few times in case one time it does enter re-sync. mode, and try pressing the plip a few times after the second double clonk of the locking system, but the fact that the warning light is not coming on and staying on for 15 seconds, suggests it is not entering re-sync. mode and you have indeed a fault in the electronics I'm afraid.

One further thing you might want to try, is disconnecting the vehicle battery and leaving it off for at least five minutes.  Then after re-connecting, and the system has re-set itself, immediately try the re-sync. process.  I don't expect it to work, but strange things happen with these systems occasionally!

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I continued to hold down the button but the red warning light didn't stay on continuously but resumed flashing at its normal rate.

I tried the plip but it had no effect.

Sorry for the bad news.

No need to apologise to me.  It is you I am sorry for, as it appears you have a major fault and if you really wanted to fix it, it could cost you a lot.  I still say you don't need a complete replacement kit at this stage, since you have one good key. (good because it is recognised by the car and it transmits)  As I said before, you only need a complete kit if you have lost both keys or both are faulty.

It is difficult if not impossible to diagnose these sort of problems further without actually doing the diagnosis myself, partly because I don't trust any other mechanic to do things correctly, or have the same ability (this may sound pompous, but I have learnt over many years from experience, that I simply cannot rely on others especially with these latest complex systems).  I would guess at this stage it is a faulty instrument module, but that is purely a guess and owing to the cost, it really needs a proper fault diagnosis done first.

The instrument modules on these vehicles are linked to the BII computer in a slightly different way to normal, since *both* store the vehicle mileage.  So if you connect another unit (either it doesn't matter) with zero or less mileage than the existing unit, the new one takes the higher figure from the existing unit, and once it has stored the new figure you cannot reduce it.  This prevents anyone testing by substituting another known good unit since the mileage will be altered on connection.

So unless you live close to me and you want me to take a look at it personally, you are either going to have to live with it as you have done so far, or take your chances with someone else.

Roy


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: ross on July 18, 2007, 06:50:25 pm
Hi Roy,

As you say we would seem to have come to a natural conclusion, without further physical investigation.

As you will realise I have lived with the situation for 18 months now so the problem is not urgent.

I would be willing to bring the car to you at some convenient time, if only to buy you a pint for all you efforts so far.

If you want to arrange a get together let me know, and I will see what the logistics are.

It's up to you which way to play it, either I can give you my contact details or you can give me yours.

In any event once again many many thanks for the invaluable help you have supplied so far.

Regards

Ross


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: Lennart Sorth on July 18, 2007, 07:59:32 pm
... either I can give you my contact details or you can give me yours.
you can send privatre messages to eachother on this forum, by clicking on the "personal message" link under the persons name/avatar in the left margin.

Its not a very obvious feature (I have toned it down to keep the layout simple), and you may have to post something to make the other party aware, but it keeps private informatrion off the public pages.

- not that the other members are bad guys of course, but other visitors may be :-)

/Lennart


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: ross on July 18, 2007, 09:11:07 pm
Hi Thomas,

Thanks for your interest in the problems with my central locking.

In answer to your question with regard to the speed of the flashing red warning light, it seems to flash at a constant speed of about 1 flash per second.

When I turn on my ignition the light stops flashing and after about 3 seconds it goes out, and this is when I usually start the engine.

As you say there is more than likely something very simple wrong with the dashboard circuit, but no one seems to have the ability to repair the dashboards, all they want to do is sell you a complete replacement unit.

The best of luck with your car, and if I learn any more about the problem with mine I will post the answer here.

Good luck to all our fellow Espace owners who like us think they are a grat car but sometimes very frustrating.

Regards

Ross


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: Martin Tyas on July 21, 2007, 02:37:43 pm
I came across the following web site some time ago that may also help as there is a section on testing for Renault keyfob and immobiliser failures and emergency re-codes.
Fortunately I haven't needed to follow their advice/procedure so cannot testify to it's accuracy or usefulness.

http://www.bba-reman.com/content.aspx?content=Test_for_Renault_Key_Immobiliser_failures_emergency_recode

This same company also offer a repair service for your own dashboard....
http://www.bba-reman.com/content.aspx?content=Renault_Espace_Dashboard

and B-II body control modules....
http://www.bba-reman.com/content.aspx?content=Renault_espace_body_controller_failing

and also repair ECU's and other automotive systems as well as supply scanners, OBDII/EOBD boxes and provide an EOBD fault code library on the site. I haven't used them so obviously cannot say from experience how competent they are or comment about their prices but from what is on their web site they certainly seem to know what they are doing.

Stupidly I'd forgotten to make a note of the name or URL for BBA-Reman and it's taken me a little while to search them out again amongst the 100's of people/companies that popped up on Google openly offering their services to undertake mileage adjustments to digital dashboards!!!

Martin


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: tka on July 21, 2007, 06:35:48 pm
Hi Martin,

Thank you for those very interesting links. If they know what they're doing, I guess this what many Espace owners have been waiting for.

Any others on this forum having direct experiences with this company?

/tka


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: roy4matra on July 22, 2007, 02:01:10 pm
I came across the following web site some time ago that may also help as there is a section on testing for Renault keyfob and immobiliser failures and emergency re-codes.
Fortunately I haven't needed to follow their advice/procedure so cannot testify to it's accuracy or usefulness.

Martin

Thanks for the link Martin.  The procedure described is only for infra-red key plips, and does not apply to the radio frequency ones that most late Espace use.  The procdure description is essentially correct, but it should be noted that when you turn on the ignition at the beginning with the key you wish to re-sync. the immobiliser warning light must be flashing fast, showing that the system is locked.  If it is not, the procedure shouldn't and probably won't work.  You need the special four digit unlock code, which I presume the downloadable zipped program is meant to give you.  Normally at a Renault dealer they obtain this from the on-line Renault database.  Once you have this, you can not only attempt to sync. the key plip, but since it unlocks the immobiliser, you can start and drive the car away.  If the electronics are faulty, putting this unlock code in manually, can mean it will stay permanently unlocked - I have seen this on many occasions, and the only solution to get the immobiliser to work again, is a new unit I'm afraid.  You have been warned.

Roy


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: roy4matra on July 31, 2007, 09:29:23 pm
Once again many thanks for your continued efforts to solve my central locking problems.

I have just returned from another try at re-synchronising the good key, and with my brother in attendance to keep his eye on the dashboard warning light.

Once again I turned the ignition on, until the red dashboard warning light went out, then I turned the ignition off and removed the key.

I then pressed and held down the overhead central locking button, and after the initial clonk of the door locks operating there was a definite additional clonk, as you described.

I continued to hold down the button but the red warning light didn't stay on continuously but resumed flashing at its normal rate.

I have just remembered Ross there was a problem some years ago to do with resynchronising plips if a Cobra or Sigma Alarm was fitted, and these were often fitted to the Espace.  You needed to disconnect the alarm first before you could carry out the resync. procedure.  It doesn't matter if the alarm has been working or not, it still needs disconnecting.

So if there is one of these alarms fitted, you need to disconnect it then try the resync. again; and whether successful or not, reconnect the alarm afterwards.  The alarm unit is under the dash, so you need to take the dash top off.  This is quite easy.  You take off the speaker grills (they are only clipped in - carefully ease them up)  Undo the three screws and lift out the speaker removing the electrical connection.  Then lift off the dash top.  If you have a sunshine sensor at the very front centre you will need to disconnect that too.  With the top off, you should see the alarm box usually left of centre dash.

Roy


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: wkl on May 28, 2008, 08:20:20 am
i have similar problem, one day both of my key fails to operate, i can start my espace though but could not open my car remotely, after a few testings the dealer conclude that the problem is with the key, so i order a new key from france, 3 weeks later the key arrive and now i can open and lock my car remotely. cost me about GBP 120


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: ross on May 30, 2008, 06:59:09 pm
hi WKL,

I was surprised to get another reply to a long standing problem that I posted a while ago.

Like you I have wondered if buying new keys might sort the problem, but my dilema is that the Renault dealer I went to said that "his computer wouldn't talk to my computer" so buying new keys at 120 a time is a gamble.

I have had my keys checked, and at least one of them definitely worked.

I have followed all the tips that other readers of this Forum have suggested but to no avail.

I am beginning to think that the first solution may not have been as bad as I originally thought, replacing the onboard computer, dashboard and keys should do the trick, but at 1000 is still out of the question for me.

I have been thinking of getting the complete system from a scrap espace and putting it into my espace, but they still want a lot of money for secondhand bits that they don't guarantee are good.

You have prompted me to get in touch with a firm that was suggested in this Forum that can repair the parts of the system, they are down near Dover, if my memory serves.

If I can send them all the bits I hope they might be able to tell me which part is defective.

Many thanks for your suggestion about the keys.

Regards

ross


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: roy4matra on May 30, 2008, 07:43:15 pm
Like you I have wondered if buying new keys might sort the problem...

No it won't Ross, and if you had truly understood my replies you would see why.  Since you cannot access the computer, and you cannot get it into re-sync mode, you cannot re-sync. any keys (which means if the only one you have working now fails, you cannot re-sync that either) and therefore the first part of any solution has to be the computer.  After that, yes, you may need a new key Plip as well, if the one that doesn't work has actually failed.

If it had been as simple as a new key Plip, I would have already told you that.  WKL's problem was different as the re-sync. operation was still working.

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... but my dilema is that the Renault dealer I went to said that "his computer wouldn't talk to my computer" so buying new keys at 120 a time is a gamble.

Not just a gamble, but a waste of money without the computer first.

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I am beginning to think that the first solution may not have been as bad as I originally thought, replacing the onboard computer, dashboard and keys should do the trick, but at 1000 is still out of the question for me.

But that is not all.  You would have to replace the injection computer too, since the codes in the immobiliser and injection computer must match.  They cannot be changed.

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I have been thinking of getting the complete system from a scrap espace and putting it into my espace, but they still want a lot of money for secondhand bits that they don't guarantee are good.

You will need a complete kit - dash, passenger compartment computer, inj.computer, two key Plips and unless they match your vehicles exact spec. and unless they can prove these all work, in all functions that is a huge gamble!

Quote
If I can send them all the bits I hope they might be able to tell me which part is defective.

You need to get a quote for investigation only first, as you will have to pay that whether or not they can repair it.  However, this could possibly be a good option...

Roy


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: renaultbiler on June 01, 2008, 10:48:03 pm
Without having read the complete posts in this thread, do i understand correct that both keys fail on remote...

The remote keys (codes) is stored and controlled by the Instrument panel. These panels have occaisonally failed and one symptom is that the keys loose sync.
One other thing is that this system are using a rolling code between key <-> car, so that when the time comes that the key have been pressed 1000 times or more without being within the range of the car, a resync is needed to get them talking again.

Normally you will have to have BOTH ORIGINAL keys in working condition in order to resync the Espace JE UNLESS the BII computer is configurated with one key only.

If you try the resync procedure with only one key it will not complete the resync as it is waiting for a signal from the second key to complete. Eventually it escapes programming mode.

Once two keys is programmet to the instrument panel no other key will ever work - you will have to order new key from Renault based on the numbers inside one of your original keys. This means that the RF print from a foreign key will not work, neither will a foreign instrument panel accept your keys if you get a second hand instrument panel to your car.

Get your keys checked by an electric company that can test radio signal transmition, if it does not work it is probably due to a bad soldering on the RF board. I had my spare key fixed by Roa on this forum.
Once it is confirmed that both keys are transmitting radio signals, then test resync.


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: ross on June 03, 2008, 10:38:47 pm
Gentlemen,

Once again many thanks for the interest in the problems with the Central Locking of my Espace, but I will have to agree with Roys comment that I just can't grasp the complexities of the computer based systems used on these cars.
All that seems to be abundantly clear is that there is no affordable way out of the problem.
It is the inability to ascertain the root of the problem that annoys me, as I might be more inclined to find the money to fix the problem if the problem could be clearly identified.
During my latest adventures under the dashboard, to try and change the heater matrix's, more on that will follow, I have seen two wires in the loom behind the speedo head which appear to have been cut and the matching ends I cannot find.
Not being an electronics "whizzo" or having any accurate wiring diagram I cannot begin to check to see if there are any faults with the loom rather than the electronic signals.
I have lived with the problem for nearly 3 years now so it is beginning to be just another quirk of the car.
Many thanks to all who have posted replies and comments, and especially Roy, who despite his best efforts has not succeded in making me fully understand the electronics, which I am sure is my fault and not his.
Regards to all.
Ross


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: renaultbiler on June 04, 2008, 08:11:32 pm
Just read the line "both keys needed to do resync" - that is mandatory on the JE. Your fix might be within range if you get the 2 original keys in working order.


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: roy4matra on June 14, 2008, 07:46:49 pm
Just read the line "both keys needed to do resync" - that is mandatory on the JE. Your fix might be within range if you get the 2 original keys in working order.

Not quite right I'm afraid.  You can reset the system to only look for one key, and you can then re-sync one key only.  I've done this on many occasions so I know it works.

However, I repeat Ross's problem is that the computer simply will not go into re-sync mode, and cannot be accessed with Clip either, so unless he has a wiring loom fault, the repair has to start with a new computer.  He is also right when he says 'there is no affordable way out of the problem'.  That is often the case I'm afraid with these new complex networked computer cars.  I see it day after day...

Roy


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: renaultbiler on June 15, 2008, 08:16:05 am
Just read the line "both keys needed to do resync" - that is mandatory on the JE. Your fix might be within range if you get the 2 original keys in working order.

Not quite right I'm afraid.  You can reset the system to only look for one key, and you can then re-sync one key only.  I've done this on many occasions so I know it works.

yeah, so i also say in one of my prev posts - but one will have to assume that this might not have been altered on this car as the default programming is two keys.


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: roy4matra on June 16, 2008, 12:56:55 pm
Just read the line "both keys needed to do resync" - that is mandatory on the JE. Your fix might be within range if you get the 2 original keys in working order.

Not quite right I'm afraid.  You can reset the system to only look for one key, and you can then re-sync one key only.  I've done this on many occasions so I know it works.

yeah, so i also say in one of my prev posts - but one will have to assume that this might not have been altered on this car as the default programming is two keys.

But as I quoted, you cannot access the computer at all, so you cannot reset it either!

Ross is going to have to either change the computer or stay with one plip; and if that fails for any reason then he is stuffed because you cannot replace two items at once - so with both keys not working AND the computer not accessible, he would then have to have a completely new kit. i.e. Injection computer, Immobiliser computer and 2 new key plips all with new matching code.

Roy


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: renaultbiler on June 16, 2008, 09:35:13 pm
Ok so i missed that part about unaccessible BII - but a second hand instrumet cluster (RF stored) + BII (Immo stored) + keys and all from same car would do as the injection computer can be reset to blank out immo code.


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: roy4matra on June 17, 2008, 07:44:03 am
Ok so i missed that part about unaccessible BII - but a second hand instrumet cluster (RF stored) + BII (Immo stored) + keys and all from same car would do as the injection computer can be reset to blank out immo code.

No it can't.  You could reset inj. immobiliser codes on the early Renault computers, but not the later ones.  Unless you know something that Renault are not telling their RTE's?  For some years now all inj. computer codes have been unchangeable.

Roy


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: renaultbiler on June 18, 2008, 06:36:51 am
It is possible to blank most ecu's with 1'st and 2'nd generation immobiliser (upto Lag II etc).

If you know the car security code (current code working in the ecu) you simply fit a foreign -identical -and already coded decoder in the car (in this case the BII unit) and enter the security code matching the ecu, the ecu will then be reset (enter code following ignition OFF and then pull out the foreign decoder, next ign ON will supply the ECU with the foreign decoder security code - and this code might not be known!!).

In the few exeptions this wont work or when you dont have the security code for the ecu, i have a small "black box" that cracks the security code within a few hours and then blanks the ecu immo code.  ;)

Done this on a lot of cars now, mostly Laguna and Megane's, to replace original ecu with second hand ecu OR as part of the procedure to remove the immobiliser completely from the car.


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: roy4matra on June 18, 2008, 08:00:23 am
It is possible to blank most ecu's with 1'st and 2'nd generation immobiliser (upto Lag II etc).

Well that is roughly what I was saying - those early computers only had a 4 numerical digit security code.  The newer computers have a much longer hexadecimal security code.

Quote
If you know the car security code (current code working in the ecu) you simply fit a foreign -identical -and already coded decoder in the car (in this case the BII unit)...

And there is the first problem.  The Espace stores its mileage in two units - the BII and the electronic instrument panel, so if you fit another unit, it will take the mileage of the highest unit.  You also have to have a 'foreign, identical, and already coded decoder' - not something a dealer is going to have lying around!

Quote
In the few exeptions this wont work or when you dont have the security code for the ecu, i have a small "black box" that cracks the security code within a few hours and then blanks the ecu immo code.  ;)

Well yes, Renault are not going to approve of that or tell their employees about anything like it!

Quote
Done this on a lot of cars now, mostly Laguna and Megane's, to replace original ecu with second hand ecu OR as part of the procedure to remove the immobiliser completely from the car.

Or this!!  In fact Renaults policy won't even allow us to give any owner the 4 digit code to manually unlock a system.

When I said changing codes was not possible, I was talking of the official system, and the procedure any dealer workshop can carry out.  If an owner here, cannot do something themselves, and they take it to a garage, they can only do what is officially available.

Roy


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: renaultbiler on June 18, 2008, 08:52:55 am
As this IS an Espace with a 4 digit security code, the ecu can be reset quite easily. The dealers procedure (foreign decoder) is widely mentioned in various NT's. I do however have the impression this is not common knowledge (what do they read at all..?).

Pre this i have already said that instrument cluster + BII + keys from a foreign car can be used ( mileage copying on JE should be quite commonly known now, already mentioned on several subjects ) and presto you have a foreign and coded decoder in the car - i am not talking as i was a dealer apostle here, cheapest solutions MAY exists outside the dealers network IF you know what to do AND how to do it. That is one of the purposes with a forum like this...

What dealers do -or mostly do not do -is not the issue here - but ofcourse they cannot use unofficial methods EVEN THOUGH i have helped Renault dealers in removing immobiliser AND blanking ecu's  ::) (VERY unofficial then, i guess), just trying to save this guy from buying a new BII, new Instrument cluster, new ECU and new keys -IF he wants to try and fix it without leaving it all to a dealer (then we probably would never see a question in a forum anyways).

You can argue about everything for sure, what i am stating here is a fix on this and other pre 2001/2002 Renaults (that all have 4 digit codes unless they are not newer multiplexed cars). Only post dealers work in this case might be some configuration chenges, but there is quite a few with dealers tools around that can do this.

And an immo code calculator for gen 1 and gen 2 is available for free download various places on the web, works like a dream - so not dependant of Renault for that either ;D -as long as you have one of the original keys with label available.


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: ross on June 24, 2008, 07:18:48 pm
Hi Tom,(renaultbiler)

If my understanding of your last message is correct, then you are telling me that my plan to swap all the electronic components from another Espace into my Espace is possible.
There would seem to be a difference of opinion on this subject, but I was hoping that this might be the answer.
If I don't worry about the mileage being correct then can I just change all the componemts, dashboard-computer-keys-B11 from one Espace to another ?
Many thanks for your reply.
Regards
Ross


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: renaultbiler on July 02, 2008, 10:43:14 am
Yes you can - but note that there is a few different BII versions (BII - B2 , BII - B3) and this is stated on a sticker on the BII unit. Best luck with identical one.  Then you "only" have to reset / or bypass the coded solenoid valve on the diesel engine as it wont match any second hand components you put in.


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: Sommerby on August 24, 2008, 05:43:38 pm
I also got problems with the remote central locking system on my JE 2.2DCI from 2000.
I have 2 original keys which were working OK until resently. Both keys gradually got more and more unstable and it is now very rare that they works.
I have also tried the sync procedure mentioned in this tread, but without any succes.
I have done following:
Inserted  key in ignigtion and powered on until the warning light disapeered.
Took the key out of the ignigtion and pressed the central locking button at the roof panel untill the 2 click noises.
Warning light is on.
When I press the two keys (one at the time) while the warning light is on, the warning light remain on untill timeout.
I have off course at a early stage renewed the batteries in the keys.

Can it be the reciever which is bad? or what do you guys think?

Best Regards
Bo


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: ross on September 22, 2008, 09:15:54 pm
Hi Bo,

Unlike your troubles my remote central locking has never worked as long as I have owned the car, as when i bought it the previous owner said that it was only a battery problem with the keys.
I took my car along to the Renault main agent and they could not get their computer to talk to my computer, and their solution was to rip out the whole system and replace it all, for about 1000.
I have lived with my solution, locking the car with the central locking button, and then locking the passenger door with the key.
If you can do this then there is very little wrong with the system, but it is uneconomical for "Renault" to spend time trying to pinpoint the cause of the fault.
I trust that you have had the keys checked to see if they are both emitting a signal, which is something a lot of independant people can do for you.
Apart from this piece of advice there is very little more I can add as after 3 years I am still in the same position.
Best of luck with your search.
Regards
ross


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: ross on January 18, 2010, 11:00:15 pm
Hi All,
You may remember my thread regarding the problems with my remote central locking, and my questions about swapping units from one car to another, well I have done it and it has worked.
I bought a similar car to mine, as spares, for a lot less money than Renault want for the electronics system, and swapped out the dashboard, b11 unit, keys and diesel solenoid, and it all now works a treat.
What a good feeling to be able to walk up to the car, press the key fob and hear the clunk, see the indicators flash and have the interior light come on.
If you need any more information please let me know.
Regards
Ross


Title: Re: remote central locking
Post by: fragmaster on November 20, 2010, 01:30:34 pm
I have a 2.2 turbo diesel grand espace, year of manufacture is 2000(W).
ever since I have owned it, about 18 months now the remote central locking has refused to work.
All the other cars fuctions seem to work correctly but my local renault dealer wanted over 1000 to fix the problem.
I lock the car using the central locking button on the overhead console and the passenger door lock.
I have had the keys checked and the one we normally use is not emitting a signal.
I have purchased a new key fob off of Ebay but I have not had the courage to try and reset the keys using my old working key and the new one I purchased off of Ebay.
Can I align the two key codes or do I have to take them to my dealer?
I would be very grateful for any help you can offer.
regards
Ross


   i have had this poroblem on a few renault keys and it has always been the little ir diode that attaches to the small circut board inside the key fob has a broken leg.. it is mounted to the board with two legs soldered check for break, sometimes its not apparent at first