MatraSport Forum

Howdo?
I want to change the engine and gearbox oil before I launch my car down the drag strip at the french car show.
Can anyone tell me the engine and gearbox capacities please? Also, if there is any special gearbox oil recommended.

Any advice gratefully received.

Cheers,

Antony

According to my Car Service Data book, the 2.2 Tagora takes 4.3 litres including the filter and the CX gearbox takes 1.6 litres.  Not sure what oil to recommend. I tend to use good quality semi-synthetic or full synthetic depending on the type of engine and most manufacturers use synthetic gear oils these days.

Thanks very much. 1.6 litres isn't much is it?
My Volvo 480 'box takes 3.4 litres and demands special oil without any additives that would corrode brass.

According to the Murena service manual, the amount of oil is 1.3 litres in total, when renewing the oil it specifies only 1.1 litres (probably because not all of it can get out). I don't know why there's a difference between the CX and the Murena specs?

The Tagora takes more oil than the Murena because the oil pan is a good deal larger. Last time I renewed the oil, I only got 3 litres out, but that was my fault as I had the rear of the car on ramps. Best way, I think is to lift the right side of the car. I think it takes between 3.5 and 4 litres.

I used Valvoline VR1 5W/50 fully synthetic.

- Anders

With the gearbox I think its in the way its mounted in the murena..

As for capacity, I bought 2 cans of 4 liters, to have enough.. and still have one un opened and a bit left from the first one.

The little extra you pay for full synthetic oil is peanuts, and only the tightest of people would save money here!

The brand is less important , Shell, Castrol , Valvoline, Duckhams etc.. its all fine.
However, you need to be careful not to use an oil that is too thin (Right Lennart?? )
Remember the engine is old, and of old design.. so the tolerances are likely to be much greater then what the latest grades of "super" oil is intended for.
I use a good quality full synthetic 10w40 , and don't rev it hard before I know its thoroughly heated up. :)
 

oh yes, and while you change the oil, make it a habit to check the airfilter as well, as that was the real cause of my engineproblem. The thin oil only made the problem visible earlier, as the oilpressure wouldn't stay over 3 in idle as usual.

But as you say, old engines are not produced to take modern thin oil in the first place, and even less so when worn. 10W40 sounds good to me. 5W40 may work as well, but I'm not taking any more chances :)

/Lennart

I don't agree with you that the 10 or 5 makes any significant difference.

The viscosity of the oil when cold should be as low as possible to ensure that as much oil is as quickly as possible sprayed everywhere in the engine. The number after the W refers to the viscosity when hot - this we want as high as possible to ensure as good lubrication as possible. High viscosity liquids lubricate better.

Mineral oil will leave sludge in the system unless its changed very frequently, whereas fully synthetic oil will only take the colour from the parts it gets in contact with, but not release it as sludge. Synthetic oils also has a cleaning effect, so some people warn against using synthetic oils after having run mineral oils for years as any released sludge may block openings in the oil gallery.

- Anders

I didn't say that, but in my case the failed airfilter had worn the interiors so much, that the oil couldn't keep up the pressure, and that combined with my 0W40 was not a pretty sight. Weather another oil would have had any influence is hard to say - probably only given me a short while longer to decide on replacing the oil or discover the split airfilter.

but anyway up, I will follow Krede at say 5-10W40 or 50 if that can be obtained outside bikerworld.

/Lennart

Oh, well then I do agree anyway ;)

The capacities for a Murena 2.2 are 4.5 litres in the engine, and 1.6 litres in the transaxle.  The engine definitely needs over four litres since our 'new' four litre oil pack is never enough - why did they change the can size from the original 5 litres which was ideal?  The synthetic transaxle oil comes in 1 litre containers and 2 are more than sufficient to replace the oil in CX based transaxle.

I have always used synthetic oil in mine from new.  Originally I used Mobil SHC which became Mobil 1 but now I use Castrol RS which is 10W/60 (mine are old packs as I believe they have changed the rating recently).  The synthetic transaxle oil is 75W/90 and is even more expensive than engine oil, but easily worth it in the long run.  However, the synthetics are much cheaper in France than the UK, so it is best to buy them when you are over there, and not pay the inflated UK prices.

As Anders pointed out, a low 'W' rating is fine, and the old terms thick or thin when talking about oil, cannot be used in relation to synthetic oil, since 'thickness' was to do with the waxy element in multigrade oils and which is not in synthetic oils.

We used to think a thick oil was better as all oils got thinner with temperature, and so if you started with a thin oil (better at cold temperatures) it became too thin at high temperatures to protect the engine properly.  This line of reasoning was flawed, but particularly with regard to synthetics.  In fact you need an oil that at cold temperatures can get around the engine quickly to protect it during the most vulnerable stage - almost all engine wear takes place when it is cold.  However, you also need good protection when really hot.

A synthetic oil will fulfill both these extremes since it is fluid enough when cold to get around the engine very quickly, because it does not have the wax that makes multigrades thick and less fluid when cold.  Yet it also has greater high temperature protection.  A normal multigrade oil has lighter elements that evaporate or burn off with use, leaving the remaining oil even 'thicker' and worse from a protection point of view especially from cold.  This is why it needs replacing often.

A synthetic oil will remain fluid at all temperatures throughout its life, which can be much longer too.
High mileage trucks often do 100,000 kms on one oil change!  I have done 25,000 kms on one oil change in my Murena with no problems.  It is time rather than just mileage that can determine when you need to change an oil, since it will depend on how much moisture has got in.  If you do very low mileages, moisture will contaminate the oil during the long unused periods.  So you need to change it.  If you use the car regularly, the oil will stay cleaner and will not need to be changed as often.  If the car is used regularly, and you use a synthetic oil, then two year change intervals can be fine.  If you don't use it regularly then you might need to change it once or even twice a year.

Considering the cost of an oil change against the cost of an engine repair, it always amazes me that owners are often reluctant to change their oil, or use the best quality oil.

I hope this helps your understanding of an often mis-understood topic.  Any further questions, please ask, and if I know, I'll give you my answer.

Thanks for that answer Roy.
I just bought some Comma semi-synth 75W/80 GL5 oil, would this do for the gearbox?

Sounds O.K. to me.  I haven't any experience of that particular brand, but as it's a semi-synthetic, it should be fine.

Roy

Thanks. I changed the engine and gearbox oil last night and the gearchange seems smoother and, it may of course be my imagination, but the car seems to be nippier and more responsive.

I always change the oil at 6000 miles in all my cars, so I doubt I'll need fully synthetic stuff.

It should be.  No it's not your imagination.  Think about what I said, there is little or no wax so the synthetic is more fluid even cold.  This makes the gearchanging easier as the oil does not get in the way of the synchros when engaging.


Again, the reason for changing oil at intervals like 6,000 miles, comes from the fact that with multi-grade oils the lighter elements get burnt off and evaporate leaving a thicker substance behind.  So you had to change the oil regularly to replace the lighter elements and in fact get the oil back to what it is meant to be, and to continue to lubricate properly.

This no longer applies to synthetic oils, so change intervals are not necessary for the old reasons.  Change the filter regularly to get rid of the crap, but if you use the car regularly, then you don't HAVE to change the oil as much of necessity.  However, changing the oil can only be good for the engine, so continue to change it whenever you like, by all means, but understand the reasons behind it too.

If you could get good by-pass oil filters (that filter down to much smaller particle sizes) things would be even better, but I still haven't found any easily available yet.

Roy

I noticed the other day from his web site, that our German freind Bernhard Müller has designed an oil filter adapter so he can use VW filters on his 2.2 Murena engine. Not knowing exactly what a "good by-pass filter" is, I can't say if this helps you, Roy, but it just rang a bell:

(http://www.technikhomepage.de/kfz/motor/bilder/oilfilter.jpg)
http://www.technikhomepage.de/kfz/motor/22-5.html (http://www.technikhomepage.de/kfz/motor/22-5.html)

- Anders

Thanks Anders, but I already have a remote oil filter on my 2.2 - it makes changing the filter easier and cleaner. (since it hangs down from the remote filter head, there is no oil spilled when changing unlike the upside down original which guarantees oil wil run down the block!)  I can also use a much more common filter with the remote since it takes a standard thread rather than the odd 16mm size that Talbot always used.

However, a by-pass filter is a different thing.  Normal filters only filter down to a certain size since they cannot have smaller pores otherwise the oil flow would be seriously impaired.  This means that many small particles will pass straight through.  A by-pass filter, has a section with much smaller pores and approx. 10% of the oil is passed through this to remove the tiny particles.  Over a period the oil is more thoroughly cleaned taking out all the smaller particles that a normal system misses.  This further extends the synthetic oils life whilst giving better protection against damage.

There will be an article in our magazine on this soon.

Roy

That sounds like a nice upgrade, Roy and even better than Bernhard's solution which is just straight on the block. Where did you find this item and is it something that is still available?


I understand why you find this interesting as it sounds like a much better filtering principle. I'll certainly look forward to the article.

- Anders

Yes these remote systems are available, but it is not something you can just go to a shop or on-line site and say i want this for a Murena.  The parts have been available for many years, and for instance in racing you might want a bigger or more easily accessible filter or an oil cooler, for a normal manufacturers car engine, and one simple way to convert a standard engine is to replace the 'spin-on' filter with an adaptor that has an output and return.  So instead of the oil coming out of the block into the filter and then returning to the block filtered, it comes out of the block, through the adaptor, via a special hose to the remote filter head, through the new filter, and back to the block via another hose and the adaptor.  if you require oil cooling you can connect a cooler via a thermostat to these remote filter heads.

All I did was obtain the necessary parts, had them make up some hoses to my requirements and fitted it to my Murena.

Roy

Doing a quick search on Demon Tweeks I found the following items:

Take off plate:
http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/products/ProductDetail.asp?cls=MSPORT&pcode=MOCTOP10 (http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/products/ProductDetail.asp?cls=MSPORT&pcode=MOCTOP10)
This is available in 16 mm.

Remote filter head:
http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/products/ProductDetail.asp?cls=MSPORT&pcode=MOCRFH4 (http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/products/ProductDetail.asp?cls=MSPORT&pcode=MOCRFH4)

- Anders