MatraSport Forum

Each model => Murena => Topic started by: macaroni on August 30, 2007, 09:46:58 am



Title: Master or Slave?
Post by: macaroni on August 30, 2007, 09:46:58 am
Keep it clean guys, I am referring to my clutch cylinders, not some naughty act between consenting adults...

My brake/clutch fluid reservoir is emptying rather rapidily and having ruled out, for now, the braking system, I think it could be the clutch system with a leak.

The brakes feel fine, the pedal is firm and there is no sign of any leaking from the calipers. If it was leaking into the servo, there would be lots of smoke as the fluid is drawn into the inlet manifold, but there is none.
Also, the "front" reservoir goes down quickest and the clutch system draws from that.

So, everything points to the clutch system: which is it more likely to be, the master or slave cylinders?


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 30, 2007, 10:43:57 am
Haha, I did raise an eyebrow.

It's your master, most likely.

I've been there. The carpet under the clutch pedal will be wetted with the fluid. The problem is that the front seal in the cylinder has been worn and can no longer keep the fluid in.

I managed to find a seal kit in Biltema, a nordic car parts outlet, but only after I bought myself a new cylinder, and I still have it lying unfitted on the old cylinder. It shouldn't be difficult to restore a worn cylinder, as long as it's only the rubber seals that are gone. It was on mine.

- Anders


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: LarsB on August 30, 2007, 10:47:52 am
Do you remember the biltema part number or which car it was supposed to work on?

Lars


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 30, 2007, 11:13:26 am
Do you remember the biltema part number or which car it was supposed to work on?

As my wife can confirm that I have a memory like ... oh I forgot what it is!, anyway there's room for improvement - no I can't.

But I can look it up when I get home.

Meanwhile, here's a photo of the piston with the damaged seal (the rightmost one):
(http://gallery.dinsen.net//d/510-1/DSCF0113.JPG)


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: macaroni on August 30, 2007, 01:20:44 pm
Anyone know what other cars share the clutch slave and master with the Murena?


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 30, 2007, 02:54:14 pm
Anyone know what other cars share the clutch slave and master with the Murena?

I'm afraid there aren't any... there are replacements for the 1.6 cylinders, but not the 2.2. Tagora had a cable clutch, i.e. no help either. The seal kit I found was for a similar sized Bendix brake cylinder for a Volvo, I think.


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: macaroni on August 30, 2007, 03:58:55 pm
Oh dear. Are the 1.6 clutch cylinders different from the 2.2?


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: krede on August 30, 2007, 04:19:20 pm
I would never purchase such parts from "biltema".. as I find the quality of their stuff appalling.


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: michaltalbot on August 30, 2007, 04:56:35 pm
Tagora had a cable clutch, i.e. no help either.

No, Tagora has also the hydraulic clutch and the slave cylinder IS the same as on Murena. I am not sure about the master cylinder, but when I was looking for repair kit at 1997 for my Simca 1308 S, I finally found that these o-rings are the same as on rear brake cylinders (diameter 19mm)  ;)


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 30, 2007, 05:08:24 pm
Tagora had a cable clutch, i.e. no help either.

No, Tagora has also the hydraulic clutch and the slave cylinder IS the same as on Murena. I am not sure about the master cylinder, but when I was looking for repair kit at 1997 for my Simca 1308 S, I finally found that these o-rings are the same as on rear brake cylinders (diameter 19mm)  ;)

Oh, well I learnt something new there!

Well if the slave is the same on the Tagora, then the master probably is too as the diameter of it makes the difference with regard to pedal movement.

Quote from: krede
I would never purchase such parts from "biltema".. as I find the quality of their stuff appalling.

No, of course you wouldn't ;) I don't agree with your view on their quality, however.

- Anders


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: roy4matra on August 30, 2007, 07:14:26 pm
Oh dear. Are the 1.6 clutch cylinders different from the 2.2?

Yes, the master cylinder bore size is different.  Slave cylinders are totally different.

Are you sure it is the master cylinder - is there fluid leaking onto the carpet under the pedal?  Or is it the slave cylinder?  If it is the slave cylinder, Bendix kits used to be available to repair those, assuming the bore is good.  Even if it is the slave, you can expect the master to go sometime soon as well, since you are now using a car that has had very little use over the previous 10 years.  This means various items will need replacing, such as the water pump, brake and clutch system parts, as all these seals will probably fail - I have seen it so many times.  So watch things carefully.  You don't want to have the engine damaged because the water pump failed and you didn't spot it soon enough.

Manufacturers no longer wish to supply repair kits for brake master cylinders, mainly owing to liability laws where they can be held responsible even though they did not carry out the work!  Stupid I know, but that is how bad our legislation is getting.  Since the bore size of the clutch master cylinder is the same as the brake master cylinder, they believe if they offered a clutch master cylinder kit, people would use them to repair the brake master cylinders.  The 1.6 clutch master cylinder is smaller than the brake master cylinder, so a repair kit was available...

Roy


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: krede on August 30, 2007, 08:51:45 pm
Quote
I don't agree with your view on their quality, however.

Have it your way then.. but don't say I didn't warn you!..In my experience the parts you buy at Biltema,t-Hansen,Hoyer etc will get you through the MOT (if you are lucky).. but that's about it.
Especially ball joints should not be "bought cheap".     



Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 30, 2007, 09:23:31 pm
Quote
I don't agree with your view on their quality, however.

Have it your way then.. but don't say I didn't warn you!..In my experience the parts you buy at Biltema,t-Hansen,Hoyer etc will get you through the MOT (if you are lucky).. but that's about it.
Especially ball joints should not be "bought cheap".     

I've bought mostly original spares for my Renault Espace's since that gives me both warranty and ensures that the thing works when fitted, and I agree Krede, that many cheap parts are plain rubbish. Biltema probably have some bad parts too, I just find that they are better than the two others you mention. It's a shop for Swedish auto nerds (no pun intended!). T-Hansen is for young guys driving a container for their cool stereo. The fact that Biltema *have* a repair kit for a brake master cylinder proves their attitude to me. As for joints and most other spares: Biltema can't help us anyway, so the discussion is rather abstract there.

Click the link below to see a photo of the parts kit. As you can see it also contains pieces for repairing a brake servo and other stuff in the same box. Part number is 66-742.

http://gallery.dinsen.net/v/Murena/technical/clutchmastercyl/DSC_0002.JPG (http://gallery.dinsen.net/v/Murena/technical/clutchmastercyl/DSC_0002.JPG)


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: macaroni on August 31, 2007, 10:07:05 am
Well, a quick feel of the carpet by the clutch pedal and the consequent covering of my hands in nasty oily stuff reveals that the problem is almost certainly the master cylinder.

So what are my options? Matramagic don't list a master cyl for a 2.2, just for a 1.6. I could try and source one from a Tagora, but do they fit any other Simca/Talbots - the Alpine (1301) for example?

I got a bit lost in the discussions about brake cylinder repair kits. Do the brake cylinder repair kits fit the clutch master cylinder?

I hear what you say Roy and I have had my fair share of things failing through lack of use; auxilliary belt, coil, ignition module and now my clutch master cylinder. The water pump was replaced just before I bought the car, so that should be OK, but it does beg the question why the auxilliary belt failed soon after I bought the car!!

Can anyone tell me the bore of the 2.2 master cylinder?

Anders, if I get stuck, can you get me a repair kit from Biltema? (sorry Krede!)


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: macaroni on August 31, 2007, 02:40:55 pm
OK, I found somehere (www.simcatalbotclub.org) that can supply a Tagora 2.2 clutch master cylinder for a good price.

Can anyone confirm that this will fit a Murena 2.2?

Cheers,

Antony


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 31, 2007, 02:45:36 pm
Anders, if I get stuck, can you get me a repair kit from Biltema? (sorry Krede!)

Well that might be possible, but since my 'local' Biltema is a little short of 100 km away I don't think you should rely on me.... However, Krede has one that is local to him... (SORRY, Krede!)

Yes, a brake cylinder and a clutch cylinder is the same principle, so the seals are the same. I'll measure my spare tonight.

I bought my master cyl from Will, so he has probably just forgotten to put the 2.2 one on his web site. I'm certain you can get a new one from him in which case the repair will be quite easy.

(Yugh, the forum is slow these days!)


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: LarsB on August 31, 2007, 04:03:51 pm
I have done some research with Biltema and found that at least the part number no longer eksist. However it is possible that some of the stores still have these kits.

Lars


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: roy4matra on September 01, 2007, 03:39:37 pm
Well, a quick feel of the carpet by the clutch pedal and the consequent covering of my hands in nasty oily stuff reveals that the problem is almost certainly the master cylinder.

So what are my options?

A new master cylinder.  They are available whether Matramagic stock them or not.  Use Simon in Germany or HB Pieces in France.  Or search websites like Quinton Hazell...

Quote
I could try and source one from a Tagora...

I'm almost positive the Tagora one is not the same.  If parts were directly from a Simca/Talbot model the part number was the same. e.g. front discs, starter motor, head gasket etc.  However the clutch master cylinder for the 2.2 is a Matra special number meaning it is different.

Quote
I got a bit lost in the discussions about brake cylinder repair kits. Do the brake cylinder repair kits fit the clutch master cylinder?

THERE ARE NO BRAKE MASTER CYLINDER REPAIR KITS.  Bendix will not supply them.

The part number of the 1.6 master cylinder suggests it is the same as the Bagheera but different to Simca/Talbot models.  There is a 1.6 clutch master cylinder repair kit if you can still get it, but the master cylinder bore is smaller than the 2.2

Is that clear now.

Roy


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: macaroni on September 02, 2007, 08:51:48 pm
Crystal.

What is the bore of the Murena 2.2 master cylinder?

Matramagic and Simon can both supply them, but at a price almost 3 times that of a Tagora cylinder and I would like to know what the difference is.

Antony


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: Anders Dinsen on September 02, 2007, 11:15:01 pm
What is the bore of the Murena 2.2 master cylinder?

Oh yes, I forgot I promised to measure it :( It turns out, however, that a measurement isn't really possible without taking the old one I have apart. Since it's tricky to get back together I'm not going to do that.

Luckily the workshop manual can help: The 2.2 master cylinder has a bore of 20.6 mm and a stroke length of 25 mm. Compared to the Murena 1.6 which specifies a larger bore of 22 mm.

And Roy is right about the Tagora unit not fitting: Tagora workshop manual specifies the bore to be 19 mm and stroke 26 mm, and besides fitting is completely different.

I'm afraid you have to buy the expensive one, unless you can get a brake specialist to fit new seals to your old one.

- Anders


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: macaroni on September 02, 2007, 11:20:05 pm
Thanks for effort there Anders.

I will extract mine tomorrow and see if just a seal is needed.

Goodnight all...


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: macaroni on September 04, 2007, 02:48:49 pm
Well the actual cylinder seems to be in very good condition, so I really only need some seals.

Would anyone be willing to check out their local Biltema to get me a kit?
Failing that, I will buy a whole new cylinder, but it seems a bit overkill.

Cheers,

Antony


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: Anders Dinsen on September 04, 2007, 03:06:02 pm
Well the actual cylinder seems to be in very good condition, so I really only need some seals.

Would anyone be willing to check out their local Biltema to get me a kit?
Failing that, I will buy a whole new cylinder, but it seems a bit overkill.

It looks like LarsB is correct, the part number doesn't exist in their catalogue any more! I'm afraid you are on your own... do you have a brake specialist near you? It *is* a standard seal and back when I found the kit last year, it was for a Volvo. Currently Biltema can only supply seals in 22 mm and 19 mm sizes :(


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: macaroni on September 04, 2007, 03:35:09 pm
OK, I'll sort something out then.

Roy, your website says this with regards to the 2.2 clutch master cylinder...

"Repair kit for a Volvo 340/440/460 -- reported to be "a perfect fit" so with luck any make intended for same model should do the job"

Does that mean a Volvo clutch cylinder or wheel cylinder? I'm guessing wheel, but it doesn't say.
As far as I know, the Volvo has a clutch cable.

Antony



Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: Anders Dinsen on September 04, 2007, 03:49:55 pm
OK, I'll sort something out then.

Roy, your website says this with regards to the 2.2 clutch master cylinder...

"Repair kit for a Volvo 340/440/460 -- reported to be "a perfect fit" so with luck any make intended for same model should do the job"

Does that mean a Volvo clutch cylinder or wheel cylinder? I'm guessing wheel, but it doesn't say.
As far as I know, the Volvo has a clutch cable.

Antony



Ah, well that "reported to" comes from me: That was the car that the Biltema BRAKE master cylinder kit was quoted to fit. I don't know if the Volvo has a hydraulic clutch, but the kit was for the brake cylinder anyway.


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: macaroni on September 04, 2007, 05:07:08 pm
OK, thanks for your patience with me on this, I have another stupid question...
Did the Volvo Biltema kit have both seals in or did you have to buy 2 kits?

The seals appear to be slightly different.

Cheers,

Antony


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: Anders Dinsen on September 04, 2007, 07:16:56 pm
OK, thanks for your patience with me on this, I have another stupid question...
Did the Volvo Biltema kit have both seals in or did you have to buy 2 kits?

The seals appear to be slightly different.

Cheers,

Antony

Good question ;)

I bought only one kit, but as I haven't actually done the fitment yet, I can't say I know for sure. To me, however, the seals look the same (but the right one is worn). Perhaps there's difference, however. The outer one looks like it has an edge that the inner doesn't have? Have you measured the width of them?

The next photo shows the contents of the box, as you can see it contains three seals, but one is narrower than the other two. A brake master cylinder needs three seals to make two circuits.

(http://gallery.dinsen.net/d/510-4/DSCF0113.JPG)

(http://gallery.dinsen.net/d/669-2/DSC_0002.JPG)


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: macaroni on September 04, 2007, 08:24:01 pm
As far as I can see, the 2 seals are slightly different.

I have found a Volvo 20.6mm kit so I will try that and if it doesn't work, I'll bite the bullet and go for a whole new cylinder.

Thanks again Anders.

Antony


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: Anders Dinsen on September 05, 2007, 07:19:49 pm
As far as I can see, the 2 seals are slightly different.

I have found a Volvo 20.6mm kit so I will try that and if it doesn't work, I'll bite the bullet and go for a whole new cylinder.

Thanks again Anders.

Antony

You are very welcome, do keep us posted on what you find!


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: macaroni on September 08, 2007, 08:06:46 pm
OK, success!!
I found an online Volvo parts supplier, here in the UK, and bought a brake master cykinder repair kit for a 400 series Volvo.
Co-incidentally, I also own a 480 turbo...

Only one of the seals seemed similar, and I can't quite recall which one, so I only replaced that one and kept the other seal as original.

Anyway, I put it all back together and I have a lovely, leak-free clutch.

Thanks for all your help.

This is the link to the item in question...

http://www.partsforvolvosonline.com/product_info.php?cPath=52_540&products_id=3260


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: Anders Dinsen on September 09, 2007, 10:45:13 pm
Anyway, I put it all back together and I have a lovely, leak-free clutch.

That's very good to hear, Antony :)

Quote
This is the link to the item in question...

It looks very similar to the Biltema collection...


Title: Re: Master or Slave?
Post by: Anders Dinsen on September 17, 2007, 03:09:26 pm
Only one of the seals seemed similar, and I can't quite recall which one, so I only replaced that one and kept the other seal as original.

I did my spare cylinder (or at least the piston, the cylinder still needs a cleaning inside) yesterday, and I managed to fit both seals. One of them was a combination of an o-ring and a seal, but it fits perfectly, and I'm certain it will last at least a couple of driving hours... ;)