MatraSport Forum

Hi dudes,

I would like to clean the cooling system in my 2.2, but I don't know, what cleaning fluids will work, without harming any of the different metals/materials in the enclosed system.

Yes, I have sinned! :'(  I have used normal tap water sometimes for topping up the cooling system, and I guess this also means a lot of calcium in the system.

But before flushing the emptied system with a gardenhose, should I use any solvent??

Best
Jesper

hello

http://www.ecotec.fr/

ref : 1031 (cleaning circuit) (http://www.ecotec.fr/multimedia/Photos/vignettes/1031.jpg)

after draining in the new liquid of cooling :
ref : 1032 (additive anti-corrosive protection) (http://www.ecotec.fr/multimedia/Photos/vignettes/1032.jpg)

Philippe

I respect people who sin in public! :D

But I'd be more worried for your need to top up the cooling system since it indicates a leak. And since the leak is most likely in a place in the system with high pressure, i.e. near the engine, the leak means that the "pressure boiler" in the cylinder head isn't working well and you can get lots of local boiling there - and thereby very ineffective cooling. *Very* hot spots. That can kill the head in the long run, so it's good you have fixed the leak.

It's okay to top up the system once or even twice after draining it and refilling it, but no more than that.

I can't think a bit of alcium in the system will hurt much - it may even add a bit corrosion protection ;) A cooling system is closed, unlike your house tap water system, where fresh amounts of minerals are added all the time. Once the minerals have been deposited somewhere in the system, it's gone from the water.

Will sells an additive called Water Wetter which I think is a good choise. It is designed to reduce localised boiling by reducing the surface tension of the water (it's probably just made of plain soap!).

http://www.matramagic.co.uk/product.php?productid=16405

- Anders 8)

Super.. thanks guys..

Well, I don't think that there is a leak. But I might be wrong of course. The boiling only happens in the expansion-box, when I turn of the engine (i.e. "heat soak", as you have mentioned Anders  8)), after I have fought around with parallel parking my precious in the basement, inbetween two big suv's. And I know the fan is working, and turning on, at the right time. I have changed the thermostat. Anyways, I would like to make sure first of all, that the flow of the cooling system is good. But I will check next time again, by having a look under the car, when the engine is still running, to see if it sheds the water from the expansion container. I'm quite sure, that it first starts shedding water, when I cut the engine. But let's see.

Best,
Jesper

Yes, heat soak it is, but if it boils regularly after shutting the ignition off, I think you do have a problem. I would check the water pump area very carefully for traces of coolant. A coolant leak can be very hard to detect, but leaks around there are the worst - and most likely, unfortunately.

I have also seen my Murena go very hot in the conditions you describe, and even boil, but I had a leak at the time, so that is why I think you might have too.

- Anders

Thanks Anders,

1. So what would be the best way to check for a leak? Going to a diy-garage and investigate it underneath with the engine running?

2. Furthermore, What if it is the pump... Is it easy to repair/buy/install? (no I think I know the answer..... but I am right now hoping for an answer like: hey that's just as easy as cleaning the vaccum-relay for the headlights  ;D)

Best regards,
Jesper

The good thing about coolant is that it doesn't vaporise easily, so on a dry road, the marks will stay for several days. So you could take the car for a good spin to get it well warmed up, and then leave it running for 10-15 minutes on the road, and then you should be able to see whether it's dripping or not.

At one occasion while trying to spot my proble, I caught this spectacular photo: http://gallery.dinsen.net/v/Murena/DSCF0027s.jpg.html

But before I got that far, I went under the car with as much light as I could and started looking for traces of water on the engine. It's difficult to see, however - there will always be dirty up there, and a few small oil leaks are also quite common in that area (e.g. the fuel pumps often leaks a little through its breather hole or gasket), and water has a tendency to stick to the metal and hide itself - as it's transparant it can be very difficult to spot!

But the point is that the car doesn't need to be running to show the problem, and besides you don't want to poke around up there with the machine ready to pull your hair or hands off you!  :o


Hehe, ask Björn-Anders... buying is much easier than fitting it, but I haven't been through the procedure yet. Look in the danish section below for a recent experience.

- Anders

Actually they are not that bad Anders.  Björn-Anders contacted me to ask how it was done as some had said they thought you had to take the engine out!  It's nothing like that, fortunately, and I gave him a run down on the procedure.  He seemed to get it done without problems, so ask him for a copy of the instructions. :-)  The most difficult part is possibly bleeding out all the air after refilling, but if you follow my guidelines, even that is no longer a problem.

Roy

to more easily purge the cooling water circuit it is necessary to raise the arrear of the car

(http://i20.servimg.com/u/f20/09/01/17/84/imgp6710.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=692&u=10011784)

I just take an empty coca cola bottle (funny how i always seem to have one of those at hand)... cut off the bottom of it and place it, neck first , in the filler hole of the coolant header tank, that way raising the water level above the rest of the engine.
Then open up the air bleed screws and start pouring water/antifreeze in the header tank until it starts running from the bleed screws.
Of cause I need to remove some excess coolant from the header afterwards to get the correct level, but that's simple.
 
If I was you, I'd remove the radiator entirely form the car and let it soak for a while in some solvent, to get all the insects and dirt out of it(I find that very hard to do while its still on the car.
And also to flush it thoroughly through.. 

I know it went well for Björn-Anders, you are right, Roy - it doesn't have to be that bad.

I haven't found bleeding that difficult if the instructions in the manual are followed (to get the air out the radiator). It's something people talk about, but it isn't that difficult if you just follow the procedure.

- Anders

+1 it is true but a little faster while raising the arrear

You can perfectely clean the coolersystem with lemonacid, buy it in your grocery store.

lemonacid = citric acid :)

 ;D you'r the man.. hah...

I'm sorry but I disagree - if you look at the angle of the car, any air trapped in the top of the radiator would not be cleared by that angle.  For the air to naturally flow from the top of the radiator along the hoses and pipes down under the car you would have to have the rear so high it would be impossible as the front bodywork would touch the ground long before you achieved the required angle.  Lifting it slightly as in the photo really achieves nothing.

The only quick way to bleed the air out of the top of the radiator is via the small hose that links the top of the radiator back to the header tank.  And since this goes down under the car, and air does not want to go downwards in a fluid, the method is to suck the air back along this hose until air-free coolant flows out.  Then you know there is no air left in the radiator.

If you run the engine after filling the system without getting rid of the air in the radiator, then you will get pockets of air coming through for some time, as it slowly circulates the air back to the header tank, but in the meantime you can get local hot spots that can cause serious damage.  Be warned.

Roy

Hello Roy, I'm about to fitt a new thermostat and was thinking of purging the air from the cooling system when this is done.
According to your guidelines, one should apply a vacuum to the hose radiator-return-to-header tank(marked 1) to suck any air trapped between the radiator and the point where it goes under the car(and in the top of the radiator. I guess one has to refill the little space there is left in the headertank once fluid is sucked around the system then.
But would it not be easier to open the hose at the top of the radiator, letting all the air escape here, since this is the highest point on this line(until it goes under the car)

But, how about the rest of the system and air trapped in the cooling curcuit going of to the engine(marked 2)?

Also, I do believe that item marked 3 is the temp-sensor to the temp-gauge on the dashboard, but can anybody please tell me what item 4 is...?

3= hose connection to let trapped air out the thermostat.
4= for measuring temperature for the meter inside.

Found a supplement where you need to prepare a cap with 1 meter hose and holding it far above the car for filling.

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-zgNxVoDGphY/T7ps4kWn79I/AAAAAAAAAII/wFAQmz9EXhw/s800/filling.jpg)

That is how to do it and it takes time.
Of course return hose radiator loose and close the free connection on the expansion bottle

That's some setup... filling the Murena from the second floor...

Looking a little deeper, there is a part that I can't seem to find in the partsbook. It is the small tube indicated between J and E on the PDF. It is also marked where it enters the thermostat housing with a red arrow on the picture.

Does anybody have any idea of its function....?

I gues you don't have this picture.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-sw82THYtdn8/T7znHS_8SKI/AAAAAAAAAIc/3yLx-oi00-g/s640/cool.jpg)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-pEYGMnpbzcU/T7zpKkoTHfI/AAAAAAAAAIo/vBR6Fv2dJD0/s800/cool2.png)

Yes, I do have that one. It was also attached to my post as a PDF.

That was in the workshop manual, but I can't find it in the partsbook... Seems like every other item is on it. I was trying to map up all of the plumbing in the cooling system with the drawings in the partbook for an easier-to-view layout

I think you mean part J.
It is a hose narower (don't know the exact name.).

As far as I know there was a modification with trapped air. (correct me if I am wrong).
The force of returning water was to strong in the expantion bottle making air bubbles.
The air started swirling in the system and got trapped in the interior heater making noises there.
As far as I know this was the solution for the problem.
I don't have the supplement about this, but for what I have seen you need to make it yourself, and Simon has
this in stock.
(http://www.simon-auto-shop.com/artikelbilder/06061.jpg)

The Renault Clio bottle I use has a sophisticated system in it that deals with the problem.

The same problem was in the 1.6, and that is why later 1.6 bottles are the same as the 2.2
Before they start using this bottles in the 1.6 there was another modification, but that costed some expencive parts.
So later on they switched to the 2.2 bottles

Since the small hose, from the top of the radiator, is connected to the bottom of the expansion tank, it is rather bothersome to disconnect it and suck the air out, while trying to keep the coolant from running out of the tank. Therefore I installed a "T" piece in the hose and have a length of tubing that is normally plugged at the end. When I want to remove air, I insert that tube into a half-filled bottle so it is under the surface. When I then apply vacuum to the bottle I can see when no more air is coming out. The radiator is then full of coolant. I also remove the screw on the hose by the thermostat and apply vacuum until no more air comes out. This is a bit more messy as I use a larger clear hose that fits over the opening and coolant will leak out around it. But you can see when the bubbles stop. After this I run the engine for a while and try again to make sure no more air is coming out. Works for me, your results may differ  ;)

Should I be worried....?

Well, there are several reasons why I ask... and it has to do with the cooling system. The previous ower(bhavers) has replaced the waterpump, and to my knowledge and with help from Roy also removed any excess air in the system.

The first reason for asking is when I run the engine, I do not se any water flowing back to the headertank.... I do not want to let the engiine run to long if it doesn't have sufficent cooling. (the watertemp probe is faulty, hasn't been replaced yet)

The second reason for asking is a bit more disturbing, and a bit more graphical. Sensitive viewers may want to look away... I was going to check the thermostat, and opened the thermostat housing. Seeing this color of the cooing liquid makes me RATHER uneasy.... All the fluid has the same color...  :o
(http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/6623/dsc2309medium.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/641/dsc2309medium.jpg/)

Guess a change of cooling liquid, and a long flush with the waterhose is next on the to-do list. Also at the same time I checked the thermostat, boiled some water, letting it cool of a couple of minutes and submerged the thermostat. Although I didn't check the excactly temp when it opened, at least it showed that it did open, so I concluded with that the thermostat is fine as it is.
(http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/183/dsc4004medium.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/819/dsc4004medium.jpg/)

Also, if anybody is interested, or has any questions, I have just made this fast scheme of the pipings of the cooling and heating hoses on the car. Can be exported to any 3d-format for better -self-viewing if needed.

(http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/9567/vannrr.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/542/vannrr.jpg/)

Nice work,
I save the drawing forr educational purpose.

Why the hell is there so much rust in the cooling system, and would I need some more inhibitor other then what is in the regular cooling fluid?

Well, if you check out my post on cooling pipes here:

http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php/topic,1643.15.html (http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php/topic,1643.15.html)

you will see one reason the fluid is rusty. The pipes were paper-thin at the point where the straps held them in place, and they finally blew out. Stainless is the way to go.  ;D

Damn :o
I hope mine don't blow.... Just checked, and was a pretty steep price for all the tubes needed to be changed.. total of 370€=2800NOK  :'(

I wanted to changed the pipes to stainless steel, but I had to cancel them on the wishlist because of the price... :( Maybe in the future.

One of my original pipes was in bad condition at the clamp but that section was replaced by piece of a similar steel pipe. Next all of them were sandblasted. After that the internal surface looked as a new one. Finally they got some primer and black topcoat so will last for years with new cooling fluid I think.