MatraSport Forum

Does anybody have any experince with the Facet pumps? Since the car i'm looking at need to have a new pump, i'm considering using an electrical. Would like to get it looking good, and not to big. Something like these perhaps...?


Bolted to the wall into the cockpit to get a clean, short and neat looking system.

I think the Facet pump is a pressure pump and not a suction pump. And can not find any diagrams for it....  ???

Is this a problem or not, since the pump will be about 50cm above the bottum of the tank. Hard to tell without any diagrams.....
And must it be mounted verticaly, or could it be mounted horisontally?




Any ideas?

The facet pumps are widely used. The important thing when choosing a pump is to find one which supplies fuel at the correct pressure and can suck the petrol out of the tank. It must also be able to supply the necessary amount of fuel per minute to run the engine at full load.

Some recommend over-pressure pumps and a pressure regulator to make it compatible with the needle valve in the carburettor, but I would personally prefer a pump with integrated pressure regulator, like the membrane type pump I have fitted on my car. The Murena carb has a fuel return line, this will take care of most over pressure problems.

I have collected my knowledge about the subject here:
http://dinsen.net/murena/electrics/fuelpump

A word of caution when you do the job: Take care. Working with fuel is dangerous. The same applies to the carb. So keep your 220V lamps at good distance, take care not to make any sparks, and if/when you spill small amounts of fuel, let it dry away in open air. If you use a cloth to remove it, throw it in water afterwards so it can't burn. Don't put it in your paper waste basket. I always keep my fire extinguisher very close when I'm working with the fuel system. I may be paranoid, but I want to keep my car, have four kids to support, and hate the smell of burnt hair :o

- Anders 8)

Yahhh... but it smells soooooo good!! especially 98 octane leaded!! WAY better then Diesel.. ;D

And a wife... and a dog... and a cage full of birds... and a guinneypig....
.....
Did I leave something out?  ;)


But seriously... get an electric fuel pump as soon as you can... Its common knowledge that the standard 2.2 fuel pump is prone to leaking... onto the exhaust manifold!!
My car had an enginefire on that account some years back.

I build the same electronics that Anders uses and bought a Empi Fuel pump that works at 0.27 bar.
That about the pressure the mechanical pump gives.
On Ebay €35 shipment included.
Its ready to fit...if I only had time.


(http://i17.tinypic.com/6ker1uc[.jpg)

(http://i1.tinypic.com/6kzpcvm.jpg)

Noise is an issue here... make sure you get one that's quiet..

... my wife's car, the house, the garden...!

I agree about the noise issue.

Oetker, I like your strip board!

@ Anders.

Yep, I know, it looks like youre's ;D
No fancy machines to make nice printboards, but this always worked for me.
It looks like this now.

(http://i25.tinypic.com/124ueip.jpg)

I use the testconnector to split the needed wires.

The Facet is noisy?  :o  Wouldn't be the best place to bolt it on the wall just behind the driverseat then...? but can you really hear it over the noise of the engine....?

Found out that it lifts 0,6meters, to it would be able to do the job atleast.

The silver top                 delivers 4-5,5 psi and 36 us gallons/h.
The silver top fast road delivers  6-8    psi and 32 us gallons/h

39 gal/m is more then enough for the Murena, and yes its noisy.
Because of the 45 degree upright angle needed to mount the pump,  the place above the tank looks ideal.
Maybe some rubber grommets help to reduce the vibration.

You mean 90 degrees i persume? Must be upright? Damn, that makes it somewhat harder to fit....

How much noise are we talking about...?

No, 45 degree upright position away from the tank.
The plate behind you're back wil function as a soundboard.
I have to try out myself howmuch noise it wil be, because I wil mount it there to.
I am gonna use plenty of soft rubber to isolate the vibration.
I gues it depends on the pump.
In case of emergency, put the volume of the radio a bit up 8) or put in a Devil exhaust ;)

what about the fuel pump from a peugeot 205 thats fitted inside the fueltank?

Will it fit in the Murena tank then....?

I fitted am EFI pump off an escort coshworth in my fuel tank,as I didn't want a "two pump "set up.
I made a fuel tank lit from a piece of 5mm steel ,welded a piece of steel rod bend in the same shape as the old (in tank) fuel pipe,and fitted the pump in the end of it so it's sucks up fuel in roughly the same height as before.
I did this because I didn't trust the original pipe and lit to be of sufficient thickness/strength to support the weight of the pump without eventually fatiguing     and breaking.
It is still a bit of an experiment, but so far it has been working fine.... next job is to transfer the fuel gauge sender to the new assembly, and then fit a fuel filter that is small enough to go through opening in the fuel tank.. to there will be no visible pumps of filters in the engine bay. 

However using an EFI pump for a carb engine, is a bit "over kill"...
And are you certain that the pug 205 pump is not intended for fuel injection?

I've maneged to find some pics of a facet in an Murena, but don't know who the owner is....

Does anybody know....?

Who ever he is, he should be SHOT!! for having those horrible pedals installed !!! ::)

Not only are the pedals horrifying, but the whole installation is just too much for my taste. And the pressure regulator with gauge is completely overkill as fuel pressure with a carb is not critical as long as it's not too high and the float chamber is kept at the correct level.


Not only that, it will cause massive fuel spillage. Unless you purchase an expensive pressure reduction valve. To compare: An EFI pump supplies fuel at 2 Bar pressure. The carb fuel pump needs to be no more than 0.35 Bar.

I've seen this installatin of a Facet pump:
(http://dinsen.net/murena/electrics/facetpump.jpg)

Now that we are sharing engine room pictures, here's mine:
(http://gallery.dinsen.net/d/1630-2/DSC_0198.JPG)

It's not perfect, but I'm quite satisfied with the pump installation which is neat and simple, I think.

@ Oetker - nice box. Simple, and we know how it works ;)

- Anders

Messy installation if you ask me.. hoses and wires everywhere...  (the top one)

Sorry Anders, i have to agree abit with krede there.....

Some braided hoses, and straping them down i think would be a good improvment.

Otherwise,  ;) very good jobb! especially on the pump-relay box.

Why not get some braided fuel hoses Anders?.. would look much better... ans a steel/glass fuel filter too... the type you use there looks like the sort you use on a moped or lawnmower :)

Your electrics look neat though... Is that a small fuse holder by the relays?

I have to disagree. Fuelpressure is important for a carb.  If it is a bit too high, the floatlevel will be too high. The fuelpressure is pushing the needle back in. So in my opinion the regulator and the gauge is the proper way to go.
====Disclaimer: this is only my opinion===== :D

I think Bart is right about that, but if you take a pump that is near the pressure the mech. pump gives, no regulater is needed.
Stay near 0.3 bar and I think it wil be no problem.

My hoses *are* braided, cotton braided! Except for the 8 mm connections to the pump which are rather thick EFI-type hoses. Unfortunately this pump was only available with 8mm connections. And they will never get any steel braiding. It will only be for cosmetics and I don't like things that are *only* designed to look good ;) If I was building a race car, it would be another issue, but then EVERYTING would have been upgraded to the most serious spec ;)

The relays are there to make my insurance company happy. And there's only two, because theres a thrid one hidded somewhere else in the car. They are misplaced and will be moved out of sight!

Yes, it's a fuse holder integrated in the relay socket: http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/relays/sockets.php

Why not, you do drive the Murena after all....  ;D

Don't see nothing wrong with having something that works fine, AND look good to  ;)

There!! Finally found it!!  ;D

http://murenapassion.free.fr/images/histoire/Reparations/pompe_a_essence/pompe_a_essence.htm (http://murenapassion.free.fr/images/histoire/Reparations/pompe_a_essence/pompe_a_essence.htm)

I like steel braided hoses... I like polished aluminium, and stainless steel..
As long as it looks "purpose full"
 
What I don't like is brightly coloured and cheaply chromed bits and gizmos.
Like... a completely stock engine bay... but with a chromed valve cover and nothing else.

I agree that a steel braiding might not be at all necessary, and that the condition of the "hose rubber" becomes next to impossible to check.
But I still prefer them especially since they are easy to replace, looks good, doesnt soak up oil and water like the cotton braided ones.

quote
---------
http://murenapassion.free.fr/images/histoire/Reparations/pompe_a_essence/pompe_a_essence.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
His project costed € 338.-  ;D
Mine costed € 50-60
Some money left to buy a extra beer ;)
Overkill for sure.

True... but it is amazing how quickly cost accumulates with these things... especially if you want new parts from known "brands".
 
And if you buy a cheap Chinese pump when is it gonna give up the spirit ?
That's right..... on a rainy Saturday night, in the middle of NOWHERE just as you are on your way to a party with two girls in the car!!..

I haven't had this happen to me.. but I just KNOW that's how its gonna go down.. :)

Anders, how do you hook the relay up to the coil?

quote Krede
---------------
And if you buy a cheap Chinese pump when is it gonna give up the spirit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is not made in China?
Empi is a old name in performance car parts.
No matter what brand you buy, there is always somewhere a part with a chinese (child) hand in it.
We will see if it stands the test of time.
Lucky I dont use the car on Saturdays nights.
The girls pick me up :D

YOU LET GIRLS DRIVE!!!!?
BUT!!!:: BUT BUT!!.. THERE IS NO STEERING WHEEL IN THEIR SIDE OF THE CAR!!!

They feel more secure driving themself, and nobody has to throw up during the drive. ::)

Pardon for not answering, I've been busy last week.
You can grab it directly from the coil with an additional wire under the car (I've got a whole extra loom running there now) or you can take it from the rev counter.

Or get all you need from the testconnecter.

(http://i7.tinypic.com/8bjrfrt.jpg)

P3 = -bobine and you can take +contact as well there at P6

I think I will split wires there because I couldt not find a plug for the connecter.

Just checked with the supplier now, the Facet red/silver top pumps can be mounted horizontaly. but they are pressure pumps, so they are not to happy with sucking the fuel. but for the little distance that there is in the Murena, it wouldn't be a problem.

attention with the connector it is necessary to control the connection because on much the murena the connections do not correspond to the diagram of the technical review  :-\

I tested it out on my connector (2.2 1982) and it was just as the manual said.
Ofcourse it is best to control first in case they changed the layout.

Oetker, have you installed this pump? If yes, could you send some photos or advice for installation?
I found the pump on ebay and I am thinking of buying one...

Yep it is fitted since 2009 and working perfect.
(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/1777/sany0598medium.jpg)
I replaced my steering boot gaiters and the old ones I used to put in the pump.
I let the pics speak for them self.
(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/1850/sany0600medium.jpg)
(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/3783/sany0603medium.jpg)
(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5622/sany0602medium.jpg)
(http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/7482/sany0609medium.jpg)

The pump is hanging free, and you don't hear the pump at all.
(http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/8818/sany0019medium.jpg)

What a nice idea!
I have already bought new gaiters so I will think it over.

What other parts should be fitted for this electric system?

Does it influence the fuel consumption?

There are several options.
This was the first basic setup wiring and bought and made some things.
(http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/9000/murriemedium.jpg)
(http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/8444/p1010242medium.jpg)
After some thinking, I like to keep things more simple.
The electric module is placed, and I made the engine-wiring new.
The car is running fine now, and have no electric problems.
The electric pump is great and after months of standing parked, the car starts first touch of the button.
In time I will  change things but I am satisfied for the moment.

You seem to be very good with car electronics Oetker. Wanna come over and sortout my Alfa wireloom ;D

(http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n544/wobbe98/DSCN0474.jpg)

If Oetker does not have the time, you could try to call some of the Indian tech support folks that live here:  ;D

Bit of info:-
I use a Silver Top Facet Fuel Pump mounted on rubber bushes for my 2 x 45 D.C.O.E. Weber's.
These pumps should not be fitted more than 45cm. above the bottom of the fuel tank and the outlet should be minimum of 30 deg. above the horizontal.
An oil pressure cut of switch is reccomended and used by me. Plus for my personal preference I use Filter King Pressure Regualtor and Filter aft of the pump.
Obviously I have more room than the usual Matra which made it easier for me to install.
GP

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately I am not good at electronics so I have to study the options...

But surely I will try to keep Indians far from my car...   :D

Today i fitted my electrical fuel pump with safety relay

this pump (http://www.ebay.nl/itm/Electric-Fuel-Pump-12v-/370396661786?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item563d5c881a)

this safety relay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2648&item=320724269350&cmd=ViewItem&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&vxp=mtr)

seems to work fine, mounted the pump on the back fireboard of my 1.6 Murena. Can hear some clicking have to install noise absorbers.

Safety relay turns on the pump for 3 sec if i switch to contact. It senses the signal from the tacho at shuts off when the engine stops.

Did not drive around with this setup, it seems to work fine for what i've seen so far.