MatraSport Forum

Hi Again Everyone !

I must say I where glad to recieve all the help in the last post, so I'm sort of hoping I'll get luck with this "new" problem...

I just bought myself a Grand Espace 2.0 16v -00 and love it! It has one problem, the instrument panel is... blank :-| Dead as a door nail...
The light turns on, but not the spedometer or any other instrument, further on, when turning, the flashers flash but I can't hear the tick tock sound, aperently that has to do with the same problem, also, the electrical key lock doesn't work either... but the lights work, the flashers and the radio and so on. I mentioned that since someone (the people I bought the car from) said that it's a loose wireing or something in the stearing wheel, and that the problem is not in the dash board. They said that sometimes the spedometer and the rest of the instruments turns on when they are using some of the leverel on the wheel, for example flushing the window, turning on the window wiper and so on...

So far (I bought it yesterday, the 8:th of Februari 08) I have not been able to get them to flicker on for a second even...

I'm sure it's a simple problem once located, but finding it? Can anyone give any hint or tips, I would surely apriciate all the help I can get.

Best regards,
/Eje

Fuses checked i assume?

Radio part dead too ? If not, CAN communication problem ?

Backlight ok ? = Fuses ok

My suggestion is problem with the instrument panel itself, either fault on print or flex-print OR component fault on it. Since the backlight and other functions are powered by the same supply-pin and you have backlight then supply is ok..

Hi Tom,

Well I've checked the fuses, they are okey.
Radio part working fine, can change station volume and so on.. what is CAN communication?

Backlight are like you asumed okey as well.

Strange though that everything, not only the digital part is dead, the oil, headlight lamp, hand breake and so on, they are all dead too... strange.

Like I wrote, the people I bought the car from said that they had flicked with the window viper, and then it turned on for a while.

Also strange that the flasher works, front and back, but the ticking sound is gone?

I'd recommend you get it to a Renault workshop and have a diagnosis run on it. It will be able to tell if there's a problem on the CAN bus (i.e. short circuit or broken wire) or if the display module is just dead. The clicker is also on the display module.

Hmm  -I believe you might be wrong renaultbiler. My ongoing "display-investigation"  revealed that the backlight has a separate supply! (pin 1 on the connector)

If the control-lamps doesn't work either, the microprocessor is not working.
Since the backlight still works, the connector is probably OK.
You should check that there is 12 volt present at pin 2 at the 12-pin blue connector, in case the wire is broken somewhere between the fuse and the display.

If there is 12 volts going to the display, the problem lies inside the display, leaving 4 typical errors:
1-defective 5v regulator (There are two 5 volt regulators on the circuit board, making 5v from 12v. One is for the CAN-transciever, the other supplies 5v main microprocessor and other IC's controlling the display, remote key lock, the flasher sound and all the control-lamps indicating lights on, flashers, seatbelt, door open, etc etc.)
2-broken track on circuitboard
3-bad soldering
4-crashed processor.

The first 3 "scenarios" are easily repaired, for a electronics DIY'er or professional.
Number 4 is more difficult, but I'm hoping to sort this one out too -sometime...

If the CAN lines are shorted or broken, the display would still show the clock, as long as the 12v is present.
Broken flex-prints cause loss of some display-segments, but hardly all of them.

CAN is the name of the serial protocol used for communication between the display and the main "brain" of the Espace, -the BII unit.

I do not know what else a diagnosis may reveal, but its definately worth a try.

You are right - separate supply from the BII, and Rheostat adjustment connected to BII.

RafnaTyr - can you see any radio information on the display?

I'm afraid a diagnose might reveal nothing if it is a fault with the instrument panel - not much is readable on instrument parameters, all goes over to the BII box.

Thanks everyone,

Wow, that was a lot of information ;-) it's going to be interesting "diving" in with this new info.

A question "Roa"; You wrote about
You should check that there is 12 volt present at pin 2 at the 12-pin blue connector, in case the wire is broken somewhere between the fuse and the display.

Where is that pin 2? is it in the fusebox or in the instrument panel? I can tell that the only information / handbooks I have are in Italian, and my Italian is TINY = NONE... So I have not realy any info where all these microprocessors and so on are.

But that was very helpful information I must say, I'll start checking all those options out today, and hope that it's not option 4 :-)

When it comes to the stearing wheel, I guess I can leave that out, it's not around there I guess? Sounds like it's a wire problem or in the panel/dash bord, am I right?

When it comes to "radio information" it's the same, nothing showes up at the panel, only the back light. Not even when I turn the key does the control lams "flicker" on like they should, it's totally blank.

Connector and prosessors mentioned are all located on and inside the instrument panel - you have to take the dash-cover off. No big deal, speaker covers off (click) and some torx tools and its off.
Remember that if you need to loosen the instrument panel itself some torx are hidden under some black foam bricks (you'll see what i mean when the dash top is off).

If you have a hair dryer you could try to gently heat up the instrument prosessor (Motorola one) to see if it begins to flicker/turn on - if so you have the common fault for sure. In my oppinnion that is a prosessor fault and not soldering, but me and roa slightly disagree on that *lol*

Great information Tom, thanks so much!

Now I'll get down to business, you might hear a scream of frustration all over to Norway if it doesn't work :-)

It's great to know where to start, feels a bit frustrating having no idea what to look for or where...

Thanks,

/Eje

The small printboard is the RF antenna/reciever. The Motorola ship commonly faulty is among the biggest chips on the main board.

If i was to put money on this i would put them on faulty chip - saying without seeing and measuring anything myself.

A quick question, spare parts.. used? anyone have any idea or tips of some good places where I can order used spare parts from.
I'm guessing that bying a new board will be quite expencive?
So, any place in Norway, Denmark, England or... anything goes (as long they ship abroad ;-) )

Denmark:

Birkegårdens Autodele, Vinkelvej 54, Brunshåb, 8800 Viborg. Telefon 8667 2286

Stony Renault, Industrivej 3-5, 6070 Christiansfeld, Telefon 74560662.

...and do not buy used, one thing is the mileage but you will not get your PLIP to work either - once PLIP's is programmed to the instrument board you cannot program different ones (yours).

Fortunately I've not had to try them myself yet so don't know about the costs or how good they are but you could maybe take a look at BBA Reman

http://www.bba-reman.com/catalogue/Products.aspx?category=597

They can send you a remanufactured dash panel in exchange for your faulty unit or the best way is for you to send them your own dash, they repair it and send it back.... then you have no problems with the immobiliser or recorded miles/kilometres but obviously you have to be able to take the vehicle off the road for a week or two.

They use UPS so you shouldn't have any major problems (other than with the cost!!) in getting your unit to them quickly and for them to send it back once repaired.

Martin

You can check the 5v regulator yourself -See picture:

Pin 19 = Input. -Should be approx 12V
Pin 12 = Output -should be 5v
(I've marked the pin numbering in the picture)

This chip is a standard regulator, typenumber TLE4269.

A warning: static electricity kills electronics. Do not wear fleece or wool  when fiddling on circuit boards....
Discharge yourself by touching a groud connection(chassis metal)

Fingers crossed.

Roger

Thanks Roa,

That was a great help, I'm amazed how much you guys seems to know about these cars!

Thanks everyone for all helpful information, and also the warning about not putting in a used one, a question regarding that, what is PLID?

I think I'll try to repair myself now (with Roa's great info) and if that doesnt work I'll look into BBA Reman

/Eje

PLIP = the Remote key to unlock doors (and immo on early Renaults)

Hi,

Well now I've checked the power, and I have 5 volts (6,19 actually) on pin 12 and 12 volts (13,12) on pin 19.
I also (of course) have 12 volts on pins 2 on the blue connector, so I've no iidea where to continue to search for this problem... any idea?

I had thought this where to be easy solved when I bought this car, thought I made a good deal, but now I see why they sold it so cheap...

Any help is aprriciated.

/Eje

Seems to me that your regulator is faulty. 6,19 volts is way too much. Should be spot on 5v.
Motorola states the following for the main microprocessor:

..."Maximum Supply Voltage VDD –0.3 to +6.0 V"
..."Maximum ratings are the extreme limits to which the microcontroller unit (MCU) can be exposed without
permanently damaging it."....

and also:  "This device is not guaranteed to operate properly at the maximum ratings."

First double check your measurements.
If the 6,19v persists -get a new regulator and pray that the microprocessor has survived!!
If you want to test things first, remove the regulator(soldering or very fine cutting pliers required) and connect a 5v powersupply in its place(pin 12). 5v power can be obtained, from a spare PC-power, a cellphone charger or similar. The best thing is a dedicated laboratory powersupply.
Remember to measure the voltage before applying it to your display. Connect  your powersupply ground   locally at the display(connector or cable is ok), not to some random chassisconnection!

/roa

Hi,

I do have another question regarding this problem, I mentioned that the people I bought the car from stated that the problem seemed to evolve around the stearing wheel. Well I think I've checked everything there, but I found one thing that I have a qustion about. Around the key cylinder there is a magnietc ring and outside of that there is a spool (copper wire) that leads to a very small curcit board just behind the key on the stearing wheel pole. That magnetic ring is broken in three pieces, they are all in place, but broken, can that cause this problem. Otherwice I'll give up now and send this in to BBA Reman, I've tried to get a hold of the regulator but it's nowhere to be found. Siemens where the manufacturers, they sold it to Infineon and now it's out of produktion since it consisted of led. According to EU rules, only military and hospital equipment are allowed to have led in the circuits. So I can't find anywhere to by it...

But, before I send this in to BBA I'm curious about if the magnetic ring, or the little curcuit board I mentioned can have anything to do with my problem?

b.t.w, a repair wasn't to expencive, £150 as the most, and that is regardless if it's even the main processor. The only problem is that they don't re-programme the PLID.

/Eje

The ring is the immobiliser antenna ring - if it brakes you wont be able to start the car and the red blinking immo-led on the instrument panel will flash rapidly instead of going out.

Okay, well I can start the car so it's not that then...

Do you know if there is anything else around the stearing wheel that could cause this problem, or is my guess right that they "lied" and it has nothing to do with the stearing wheel? any guess?

It would come as a surprice to me if something around the steering wheel would solve/cause this. I think you are up for a new instrument (new or possible rehab). At least that would exclude instrument, but my guess is thats infact the problem.
It could be that emperature caused the instrument to flicker in the early stages of its illness - thats a typical symptom.

Hi all,

I have just two small questions now, before sending the unit in for repair; first of all, they wanted me to send in not only the curcuit board but also the BCU (Body Control Unit) so where is that one located???

Question tw, what does that do and can that be the reason for my problems with the instrument?

Probably simple questions, but I'm a bit novice with this car and have not found any repair handbooks to this car, seems like Heynes have not made any repair book for this model...

Thanks again everyone, you've been most helpful, it's very appriciated!

/Eje

The body control unit is the BII box, the black box found in the floor on passenger side. The BII and instrument panel are in very close relationship ::) so thats probably why they want to have it in for testing the instrument.

Hi Everyone!

Well I can inform you all that I went with the tip about BBA-Reman and they did a great job!!!
It was only 150£ + shipping cost, a total of 180£ that is a "set" price, no matter what the problem is it's the same price.
So I can defenetly recommend them to anyone having a electronic/electrical problem. Also, they where fast, took only 11 days from that I sent them the unit until I had i installed again ;)

One question I have now is only about a control lamp. It's a red lamp that flicks every second when the car is stopped and turned off, also, the same thing even when the key is removed. Strange though is that it turns off when I start the car? anyone have any idea???
I have to go to the garage and replace the engine belt, it's run for 13 000 km (59000 miles) can it be that?

Pleased to hear that you got the dash panel fixed and that BBA-Reman did a good job for you.

The red light is the engine immobiliser system warning light and it should function this way.
The keys are coded to the vehicle so within a few seconds of removing the key from the ignition the immobiliser is armed and the warning light flashes. Only a correctly coded key can be used to start the vehicle so as soon as the key is inserted in the ignition and the code recognised then the tell-light illuminates constantly for a few seconds and then goes out. If the light continues to flash after the engine is started then it indicates there is a problem with the system.

You may recall earlier in this thread that the issue of the keys and the immobiliser was raised regarding the problems associated with trying to use components salvaged from another vehicle in that your existing keys would not be correctly coded to the components from another car.

Martin