MatraSport Forum

Each model => Murena => Topic started by: RazorbackNOR on April 25, 2008, 08:28:03 am



Title: Price...?
Post by: RazorbackNOR on April 25, 2008, 08:28:03 am
Does anybody have a price on converting the Murena to injection? not an exact price, but are we talking about  500 or 5000....?

And how much work does it involve....?


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 25, 2008, 12:18:29 pm
Depending on how you want to do it and what result you are aiming for, it could be either. Krede has some experience to share. It you do a complete DIY project with megasquirt ecu, modify the existing manifold to take injectors, use junk yard parts for the project, and do the tuning on the road, you might be able to do it for 500 and even learn a lot at the same time.

That was my original idea, but the idea has faded a lot with time as the carb does an excellent job already, the project requires a lot of time I can't spare, it won't improve performance significantly, and ultimately I'll convert to sidedraught carbs anyway as that was what my car had when it was modified to original prep 142 in 82.

I have collected some notes here: http://dinsen.net/murena/efi/ (http://dinsen.net/murena/efi/)


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: krede on April 26, 2008, 02:00:35 pm
The best way to do it, would of cause be to fit a programmeble ECU since, my guess is that you will want to tune it further?
If so, you are looking at 15000 dkr and up... if you want everything to be new.
Otherwise you could look for some used parts on ebay etc.

If you are on a tight budget and are prepared to experiment... Id suggest you get hold of an inlet manifold from a peugeot 505 turbo, its will bolt straight on to the Murena 2.2 engine, and is a complete unit with fuelrail, injectors, pressure regulator and throttlebody.
Furthermore, its design is far superior to the stock murena manifold, in that it has long, seperated inlet runners that will boost low and mid range power.
The throttlebody is 55mm witch is small... but adequate for about 190-200 hp without causing noticable restriction in airflow.   

With the manifold I would then use a complete wireing airflow meter/harness/sensors/ecu from a similar capacity engine.
The 505 turbo harness seems like an obvious choice, but im not sure wether this can be chipped... otherwise the opel Record 2.2 might be a good place to start as its a pretty basic system, that should be simple to convert for the murena engine.
All you would have to do then , Is take it to bosch and have them run it in and cook up a chip for you.
The cost for parts, I'd guess to be about 3-4000dkr tops if you go for used parts.. add to that the work hours for the fitting (witch I believe you will do yourself) and  about 3-5000 dkr for chipping.


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: RazorbackNOR on April 26, 2008, 06:33:07 pm
Hmm, that wasn't too bad prices... Seems like Pilitecknik have made some sets for this too, but at a rarther hefty price.... Didn't get to much sense out of it, since my french still hasn't improved.

Krede, have you done any of these mods yourself too....? Or anybody else in here....?


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: Oskar on April 26, 2008, 07:46:35 pm
wouldnt it be cheaper to convert it to xu9jaz (205 gti) engine with its existing ecu ?



Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: RazorbackNOR on April 26, 2008, 11:19:44 pm
Oskar, how and what would it involve.....?

And wouldn't that give problms concerning MOT....?


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 27, 2008, 07:04:52 am
wouldnt it be cheaper to convert it to xu9jaz (205 gti) engine with its existing ecu ?

Hardly... engine conversions involve problems with drive shafts, engine mounts, exhaust, gearchange, clutch mechanism - just to name the most obivous. But it depends on what you are trying to achieve, of course. Razorback hasn't told us yet what he's after!? ;)


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: krede on April 27, 2008, 08:05:55 am
Razor: No I havent actually done the "cheap" option, since my goal has all along been turbo power... and for that a programmable ECU is the best choice (IMHO)

If you search the forum, there is a post somewhere about my throttlebody conversion.
Its a set of Dbilas 45mm on a 40mm politec inlet manifold portet to 45mm.
The ECU is a Wolf3d that I bought off ebay along with the wireing loom and a bunch of sensors connectors and other stuff, at a very reasonable price.
Even so, the project has been bloody expensive so far.. and the power gain has been a bit of a dissapointment... (though the improved drivabillity has not.)

Lennart has had an 1.9 xu engine fitted in his murena.. and it has turned out very well.
Not only is the engine running very well (once he decided to put the right kind of oil in it :P ) , but the gearbox is much much better then the cx unit in stock murenas.
Spare and performance parts are also easy and relatively cheap to come by.
BUT!
If you are going for an engine swap , then why not go for the 16v pug out of the mi16.

Sadly though..If I am right , Razors car is a 2.2..... the xu conversion is only supposed to be "easy" in the 1.6.
But Bart should now much more then me.. he has actually done one of those 1.9 conversions... before he went mental and decided to fit a mazda rotary engine instead!  ;D



 


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: Bart_Maztra on April 27, 2008, 06:17:15 pm
Speaking of "mental", EFI the cheap way:

This is a manifold for a weber dcoe carb. Kind of simular as 2.2 carbs.  In each runner will come an injector.

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/matramurena/efi1.jpg)

From ebay usa i got weld-on injector boss.

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/matramurena/efi2.jpg)

I made an airbox from some aluminium and soldered it together with Lumiweld. (great stuff!)

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/matramurena/efi3.jpg)

The injector boss is also soldered with lumiweld. The throttle body on top is from an ...eh.... opel.

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/matramurena/efi4.jpg)

The cpu is from megasquirt. I mounted the megasquirt efi some years ago on my previous 1.9 engine. Megasquirt is the way to go if you want to spent little money but it takes lots and lots of hours to assemble it and program it.  It is fun and you learn a lot from it. 
http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html (http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html)
http://www.megamanual.com/ (http://www.megamanual.com/)
http://www.maztra.nl/C1900_MS.html (http://www.maztra.nl/C1900_MS.html)

Or spent some more money and less time by doing the same as Krede.
Or start to learn all about carbs and improve yours.


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 27, 2008, 07:53:50 pm
I made an airbox from some aluminium and soldered it together with Lumiweld. (great stuff!)

Nice work, Bart. Lumiweld sounds like just the thing for aluminium repairs. Where did you get it from?


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: Bart_Maztra on April 27, 2008, 08:24:09 pm
I bought lumiweld from an exhibitor at goodwood revival. I also saw other exhibitors selling it.  On the classic motorshow in the NEC i bougt some ALUWELD. Which is kind of the same, but different manufacturor.
Now i have tried both and i can tell you: lumiweld is great and aluweld is crap.


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 27, 2008, 09:08:56 pm
I bought lumiweld from an exhibitor at goodwood revival. I also saw other exhibitors selling it.  On the classic motorshow in the NEC i bougt some ALUWELD. Which is kind of the same, but different manufacturor.
Now i have tried both and i can tell you: lumiweld is great and aluweld is crap.

I googled a bit more and this seller came up with a similar product: http://www.durafix.eu/ (http://www.durafix.eu/), they even have a dutch site at: http://www.durafix.nl/ (http://www.durafix.nl/)


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: RazorbackNOR on May 03, 2008, 04:08:54 pm
They look great, but I thought the injectors had to be closer to the head...?

Krede, seems like a rather good idea with the 505 inlet manifold, but why a Opel Record harness/ECU....? What are the differnce between the wolf3D kit you have, and an Megasquirt or other similar?

And yes, I do have the 2.2  ;D

Why do we still need the throttlebody....?


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 03, 2008, 04:32:20 pm
They look great, but I thought the injectors had to be closer to the head...?

In the ideal situation, where you can design the manifold as you want, it depends on what you want to achieve. Production engines have the injectors spraying fuel directly on the valve as it helps cool it down. Further more, in low air speed situations (i.e. low engine speed) you get a better fuel mix by having the injector close to the valve. But in high speed situations, it's actually better to have the injector a bit away from the valve. Probably because the fuel mist is allowed to shape itself better before hitting the valve and entering the cylinder.

I don't think Krede has had these considerations - but putting it in the throttle body is a good compromise.

Quote
Krede, seems like a rather good idea with the 505 inlet manifold, but why a Opel Record harness/ECU....? What are the differnce between the wolf3D kit you have, and an Megasquirt or other similar?

It's cheap from a scrap yard. Megasquirt is also cheap, but you have to build it yourself then, which takes a LOT of time.

Quote
Why do we still need the throttlebody....?

Because you don't want your engine to run full load all the time ;)

Restricting the amount of air flowing into the engine is the way you regulate it. The ECU then calculates the correct amount of fuel after having measured the air flow.

- Anders


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: RazorbackNOR on May 03, 2008, 05:21:47 pm
Quote
Quote
Krede, seems like a rather good idea with the 505 inlet manifold, but why a Opel Record harness/ECU....? What are the differnce between the wolf3D kit you have, and an Megasquirt or other similar?


It's cheap from a scrap yard. Megasquirt is also cheap, but you have to build it yourself then, which takes a LOT of time.

Yes I see that one, but why not a 505 harness and parts, since the engines are so similar compared to the Opel.....

Quote
Restricting the amount of air flowing into the engine is the way you regulate it. The ECU then calculates the correct amount of fuel after having measured the air flow.

But I thought the airflowmeter was ahead of the throttlebody.....?




Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: krede on May 04, 2008, 06:44:35 am
Quote
Yes I see that one, but why not a 505 harness and parts, since the engines are so similar compared to the Opel.....
As I said.. It seems the obvious choice to use the 505 (turbo) harness... but Im not sure that the ecu is "chippable" :)
Also... the 505 harness is a mess with several different boxes each taking care of one task, ignition timing, injection, knock sensor etc...
The Opel is ONE box.. and I only recommend it because its a very basic system, that should be easy to modify.. and cheap to aquire.

Quote
But I thought the airflowmeter was ahead of the throttlebody.....?
yep.. both the 505 and the Opels use an "upstream" flap type airflow meter.
But as Anders said.. the throttlebody is what regulates the airflow to the engine....ie.. the throttle... you defenatly need one of those mate :)




Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: RazorbackNOR on May 05, 2008, 12:22:13 am
Hmm, and here I thought we indeed ran them at full speed ....  ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: RazorbackNOR on May 13, 2008, 02:09:38 pm
Just talked to a firm here in norway which specialises in making injection and electronic management for cars. They use a Van Kronenburg system which I think look rather good, prices didn't seem to bad either.

http://www.vankronenburg.nl/ (http://www.vankronenburg.nl/)

Will contact them some more regarding what parts are neede, what they can supply and prices.


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: RazorbackNOR on May 13, 2008, 11:22:00 pm
Has anybody tried the 505Gti manifold on the Murena by the way.....?


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 14, 2008, 08:46:58 am
Has anybody tried the 505Gti manifold on the Murena by the way.....?

Andreas Stier in Germany:
(http://www.espace-murena.com/Recensement/VF853C432DX702733_1.jpg)

http://www.espace-murena.com/recensementFrameDetailF.php?ref=VF853C432DX702733


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: Megatech on May 14, 2008, 01:25:35 pm
The safe way 30.000 DKK:
Politecnic solution  incl. fuel pump and pre-programmed ECU.

Cheap way 12.000 DKK:
Lotus NA throttle bodies and injection studs welded onto S-manifold and Megasquirt ECU and fuel pump. Homemade programming needed. Lotus forums can help.

Cheaper way 10.000 DKK:
Buy 45 trottlebodies incl. Lumenition ECU from me at 7.000 DKK
S-manifold + fuel pump  needed est. 3.000 DKK.
Basic programme is usable, but rolling road programming will improve performance.


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: RazorbackNOR on May 14, 2008, 01:47:45 pm
He he, shall think about this one, seems that the manifold and throttlebodies are the ones that really cost, apart form the ECU ofcourse.

Hadn't had the courage to do the work yet Megatech...? hehe  ;)


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: krede on May 14, 2008, 09:56:56 pm
Quote
He he, shall think about this one,
'

IMHO 45mm tb's are too large for an engine that revs out at 6300rpm.


7000dkr is A very reasonable price for both Tb and EFI


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 14, 2008, 10:58:13 pm
Quote
He he, shall think about this one,
'

IMHO 45mm tb's are too large for an engine that revs out at 6300rpm.

Current restrictor size for LMP1 prototypes is 48.5 mm  (one restrictor for the whole engine, 4 valves per cylinder, normally aspirated, less than 3 litres), and they get more than 500 BHP out of that - so yes, 45's can breathe a lot of air! 8) But since airspeed means less on TB's than on carbs, I don't think it matters a lot whether you choose 40's or 45's. Cross section is 25% larger on the 45's, and it may be a little easier to get the idle and low revs working perfectly, but as soon as there is any kind of opening, it shouldn't matter.

Stig's (Megatech) offering should be quite attractive for the seriously interested.


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: Matra_Hans on May 15, 2008, 09:53:43 am
Hi
Just to awoid any confusion:
The picture of Andreas Stier's engine that Anders ibserted above is with a 505 Turbo Injection inlet manifold NOT a 505 GTI

The 505 GTi engine has Peugeot engine code ZDJL where as the 505 Turbo Injection is the N9Te engine from Talbot. 

Hans


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: RazorbackNOR on May 15, 2008, 10:24:52 am
So this means that the ONLY manifold that will fit, is the orginal Murena manifold and the 505 turbo injection manifold....? None others...?


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: krede on May 15, 2008, 10:48:38 am
Quote
None others...?
Nope!


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 15, 2008, 11:31:30 am
The picture of Andreas Stier's engine that Anders ibserted above is with a 505 Turbo Injection inlet manifold NOT a 505 GTI

Thanks for the clarification Hans!


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: RazorbackNOR on May 15, 2008, 03:59:53 pm
The safe way 30.000 DKK:
Politecnic solution  incl. fuel pump and pre-programmed ECU.


Got mail from Pollitecnic now, a bit cheaper then we belived.... came out at 25000 NOK, with would be 3150 Euros. could be reduced to 24000NOK/3000Euro if all mounting by oneself. plus VAT.... But, still a lot, and since I haven't won the lottery yet....


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: krede on May 15, 2008, 04:14:38 pm
Are you kidding?? 
Quote
Got mail from Pollitecnic now
... That amounts to just about the same as winning the lottery!!
Politecnic are RENOWN for not answering mail!!!  ;D


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 15, 2008, 04:37:24 pm
Are you kidding?? 
Quote
Got mail from Pollitecnic now
... That amounts to just about the same as winning the lottery!!
Politecnic are RENOWN for not answering mail!!!  ;D

Maybe they have heard that everyone in Norway are billionaires and spend vast amounts on their cars? :D
(I'm laughing AT YOU, not TO YOU.... or is it the other way???)


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: Oskar on May 15, 2008, 10:44:29 pm
I might have a spare 505 turbo manifold if you want me to check?


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: RazorbackNOR on May 16, 2008, 07:35:57 am
Yes please, would you.....?  ;)

What about throttlebodies to fit on the manifold, will only the 505T throttlebodies fit, or others.....?


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: krede on May 16, 2008, 08:04:04 am
With a bit of grinding and welding, it should not be too difficult to fit another throttlebody on the manifold


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: RazorbackNOR on May 16, 2008, 08:09:54 am
Quote
He he, shall think about this one,
'

IMHO 45mm tb's are too large for an engine that revs out at 6300rpm.


7000dkr is A very reasonable price for both Tb and EFI

But you better then anyone should know that the 505Ti TB is 55mm Krede....  ;) ;) ;)


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: krede on May 16, 2008, 08:52:33 am
Yes i do... but I am using FOUR! 45 mm tb's (one for each cylinder) and the Turbo injection only has ONE 55mm Tb to feed them all.  ;D


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: RazorbackNOR on May 16, 2008, 09:49:35 am
HOLY shit.... then I see.... I thought only one 45.... hehe
But how about syncing all fours and correct airflow through them?


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: krede on May 16, 2008, 09:55:06 am
That's no problem.... all the synchronizing that is needed is for the two set (of two) throttle plates to be aligned.. you do that with a vacuum  gauge just like you do with weber carbs etc....
Fuel mixture and so on, is all done by the ecu.


Title: Re: Price...?
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 16, 2008, 10:01:07 am
Razorback - there's two different ways to do the throttle: You can have a throttle per cylinder, or you can have one at the end of a plenum manifold.

The advantage of having multiple throttles for the auto hobbyist is that it can be made as a bolt on replacement for Weber DCOE or similar sidedraught carburettors. Performance wise there isn't much to gain, but I've heard that throttle response can be made better with a throttle per cylinder.

Engine management wise multiple throttles are operated differently from plenum manifold systems. The difference is that if you have multiple throttles, you cannot reliably measure the pressure of the air going into the cylinder. If you have a plenum manifold, the ECU can measure the air pressure in the manifold and use that to calculate the amount of fuel to add. This comes from basic thermodynamics:

pV = nRT

p is the manifold absolute pressure, V is the volume of air taken in per revolution, and T is the air temperature. R is a constant, and n will then be the number of air molecules sucked into the cylinder. Using a factor, the amount of fuel to add can be easily calculated.

An ECU with multiple throttles can't do this as it can't measure the pressure - if you want to measure pressure, you need air which is not moving (at least in principle), which can't be said about the air that passes the short piece of manifold into the engine. Instead the ECU estimates the amount using information about the rpm and the throttle position.

Properly tuned, either solution can be made to work well, but I think the plenum solution is favoured in production cars because it adjusts better to engine wear.

To confuse you completely, I have to add that the 505 Turbo measures air flow differently: It uses an air flow measurement device located in the inlet. Such a device would be compatible with a multiple-throttle design, but wouldn't make sense as these devices inherently reduce air flow a bit, and if you are going for multiple-throttles, you are trying to achieve performance.

--- End of engine management lesson ;) ---