JE 2.2dci 2002 - fog lights

[Lennart Sorth]

My Espace 2.2dci - Sep 2002 is fitted with fog lights front and rear, but recently they all stopped working.

I hardly ever use them, so I haven't spend any time investigating, however when we recentrly had the car at a UK garage to get the hydraulic clutch-linkage looked over, they asked if they should fix the fog lights too, and I just said "yeah - why not".

However, as expected they came back with "sorry, couldn't". "The front ones must be caused by something deeper, which needs an RTE to have a look" (this is where I started listening, because that means that they don't use properly trained people to do anything, until it gets complicated - and then they apparently have to book the car in for another visit!).

Now to my question.

They claimed that the rear foglights "obviously" weren't operational because I had the towbar connected (not a trailer, but just the hook itself and a converter to the modern EU plugs for the electrical connection).

They kindly declined to charge me for attemting to fix the rear foglights. ha!


When I got the car home, I obviously removed the (detachable) towbar and the connector conversion plug, but still the foglights weren't working (this was apparently so complicated a test that they needed an RTE ?)


Now, can somebody enlighten me - what is the towbar connection supposed to do to the fog-lights, and (more importantly) how ?


/Lennart

[Anders Dinsen]

Now, can somebody enlighten me - what is the towbar connection supposed to do to the fog-lights, and (more importantly) how ?

Well, if you fit a trailer, you woulnd't want the rear fog lights to work on the car any more, since they will tend to shine back in your rear window (particuarly if the trailer is tall). But you still want the trailer to have its fog lights come on when you turn them on on the car. So, your mechanic is right - if the car things a trailer is fitted, the rear fog lights on the car should stop working.

Whether your adapter could lead the car to think that the trailer is attached is unlikely, however. The detachable towbar has no more effect than... saying 'plllleease' for example

On your car, this all happens through the CAN bus since the rear fog lights are driven off the rear hatch module. This is a computer module with only CAN bus connection and power, and it controls everything on the rear hatch, e.g. central locking, wiper, - and fog lights. It has a single fuse, so when this blew for me (no idea why, it hasn't done it again), all of these functions stopped working.

The trailer socket should not affect the front fog lights at all.

This answers your question, I suppose, but doesn't help fixing your problem, I'm afraid.

Have you checked the bulbs and the fused? Are you turning the switch in the right direction? Did you try kicking the right front tyre? That sometimes helps - if nothing else, you feel better afterwards.

We can take a look with the diagram when you and your car get home to DK in august, if you like?

- Anders

[Lennart Sorth]

if the car things a trailer is fitted, the rear fog lights on the car should stop working.

Yes I agree, and believe I have read this somewhere too (maybe even on this forum). But I'm a bit puzzled as to *how* the car would know the trailer is on - except if it senses the power drawn through the electrical connector. (?)

connection and power, and it controls everything on the rear hatch, e.g. central locking, wiper, - and fog lights. It has a single fuse, so when this blew for me (no idea why, it hasn't done it again), all of these functions stopped working.

ok, my rear wiper is fine, and when I turn on the rear fog lights, I can actually hear a relay engaging at the rear, so it really sounds more like the bulbs are at fault.

Its just that the car has JUST been at a Renault Dealer, who claimed they first checked all bulbs, and then realised that "the rears *shouldnt* be working because I had the trailer-hook fitted"....

I'll check bulbs and voltage tomorrow myself instead.

Did you try kicking the right front tyre? That sometimes helps

this is what I did FIRST of course :-)
However, since I am currently in the UK, maybe I should kick the left front? - what do you think ? :-)


PS: I won't be following the car, when it and my wife+daughter return to DK in August.

[Lennart Sorth]

Well - the end of that old thread was that Renault DK actually found the stalk on the steeringcolumn bad, and rather than replacing it a astronomic expense, they soldered the faulty contacts and only charged an hours work or something.

We *never* use that bloody fog light, but it is checked at each MoT, and since it is due for one now, we checked, and found the fog light again not working.

I can still hear and feel the relays in the right rear corner of the boot activate, and I can see power being sent to the trailer socket - but nothing appears at the foglights in the tail gate.

The bulbs (21W) seems visually fine (the rather poor multimeter I have available claims 0.2 ohm  which I can't make sense of, so I'll try to replace the bulb today)

We normally have a trailersocket converter fitted constantly, as our trailer uses the old-style connector, but I have removed that now, to no avail.

There is 12V on one pin for lights, and another for foglights ...
I don't know if this signifies tat the car still believes a trailer is connected, or if it always will have foglight power sent there, and only disconnect the tailgate ones when it senses a trailer connected. (?)

I have of course cleaned the contacts in the socket, and nothing seems visually wrong.


Now, we have a removeable tow-bar ... which is always fitted, to keep idiots from parking into our car (has happened) ... I don't THINK the towbar itself has any electrical switches ??

Any ideas are welcome.


Lennart

[renaultbiler]

I would open the electrical trailer connector and inspect it as these fail and corrode massively, this fog light disconnection normally works the way that when you physically plug in a plug this tampers a metal arm that is part of the fog light breaker.

Regarding front fog lights the first place to look is on the switch itself (needs dismantling of the surrounding cover), from the light stalk to the switch house there is some thin wires and the white one occaisonally brakes off where soldered to the switch housing. Just re-solder it and its fine.

[roy4matra]

Now to my question.

They claimed that the rear foglights "obviously" weren't operational because I had the towbar connected (not a trailer, but just the hook itself and a converter to the modern EU plugs for the electrical connection).

What a load of rubbish!

The rear fog lights are normal until you connect the plug for the trailer.  The socket simply has a micro-switch so that as you insert the plug of the trailer it disconnects the rear fog lights on the towing vehicle, but still allows the rear fog lights on the trailer to work.  This all supposes that the correct socket has been used and wired correctly.  It has nothing to do with the vehicle wiring, switches or the tailgate module.

If neither front nor rear fog lights were working, it may simply be the fronts that had a fault - because the rears are not allowed to work if the fronts don't.  Regulations basically are designed to the sensible rule that if you need rear fog lights you should have the fronts on too.  However the rears should also work if the front head lights are on.  In other words you have to have some front lights (head or fog) before the rear fog lights will work.  You cannot have only side lights and rear fog lamps.  The wiring to allow all this uses several relays.  So you need to find out if the fault is with the switches, wiring, or relays, etc.  A normal and fairly easy diagnostic problem.  If the garage couldn't check/fix that simple problem, I would not let them anywhere near your vehicle!

Roy