colin4255
Sr. Member
Posts: 119
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« on: January 30, 2011, 03:23:08 pm » |
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Today while I had the grille off changing a headlamp bulb, I noticed something wet around the bottom of the metal pipe that goes from the head to the EGR valve housing, so I took it off. Looked like oil, so I got concerned about turbo seals and removed the valve.
It was wet through, bit on closer inspetion, it was not oil, it was WATER. It didn't smell of oil, was far too runny and there were water droplets in the valve?? Anyone got any ideas. For now I have cleaned it out and put a spare clean valve in there, ( I would have removed the housing, but I just don't have the tools to ge at one of the hosuing bolts). I am loathe to drive it far until I figure this out?
The car has no water in the oil. It has no oil in the water (expansion tank anyway does not smell of oil and there are no bubbles I can see when its running). It is not overheating, and the heater etc are all working normally. I did put a very small amount of water in it about a week ago, but that was the first time I'd realyy checked it and topped it up in six months. It does not seem to have used any since and the hoses are not going hard and the system does not seem to be pressurising at all.
Is the water pump failing? How can water get into the valve housing? Its very strange. Any help appreciated before I end up with a huge bill
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roy4matra
YaBB God
Posts: 1212
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« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2011, 10:31:34 am » |
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Today while I had the grille off changing a headlamp bulb, I noticed something wet around the bottom of the metal pipe that goes from the head to the EGR valve housing, so I took it off. Looked like oil, so I got concerned about turbo seals and removed the valve.
It was wet through, bit on closer inspetion, it was not oil, it was WATER. It didn't smell of oil, was far too runny and there were water droplets in the valve?? Anyone got any ideas...
... How can water get into the valve housing? Its very strange. Any help appreciated before I end up with a huge bill
It depends on the quantity but it could be normal if the engine was cold. When an engine is running one of the products of the fuel burning is water in the exhaust, but this is normally in the form of a gas - steam. When it is cooled it turns back to water obviously. Since the EGR is fed from the exhaust, could this be some of the water in exhaust gas from an engine that was hot and has cooled overnight? Roy
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colin4255
Sr. Member
Posts: 119
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« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2011, 11:06:56 am » |
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OK, see if this makes sense. The intercooler is blocked. Whats covering my EGR valve is actually a kind of frothy partially condensed oil, which is why is has the consistency closer to water than oil.
The garage where I took this apparently see this all the time, but more usually, and often much worse in Audi and Ford diesel engined cars. They took one look at it and saie, 'we know exactly whats causing that'
We are going to remove the thing tomorrow and see how bad it is, but Roy, you were right it seems, it is condensation, but made very much worse by the intercooler not working.
Take a look at the image of the EGR valve I took out. This actually all washed off with warm water and soap (The EGR was cleaned and replaced only a month ago)
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roy4matra
YaBB God
Posts: 1212
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« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2011, 07:26:14 pm » |
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OK, see if this makes sense. The intercooler is blocked. Whats covering my EGR valve is actually a kind of frothy partially condensed oil, which is why is has the consistency closer to water than oil.
The garage where I took this apparently see this all the time, but more usually, and often much worse in Audi and Ford diesel engined cars. They took one look at it and saie, 'we know exactly whats causing that'
We are going to remove the thing tomorrow and see how bad it is, but Roy, you were right it seems, it is condensation, but made very much worse by the intercooler not working.
Take a look at the image of the EGR valve I took out. This actually all washed off with warm water and soap (The EGR was cleaned and replaced only a month ago)
That's interesting Colin. Normally these inter-coolers tend to split and leak, losing pressure. Since yours was blocked the pressure should have been going higher, but whatever, it seems the water was being compressed out of the atmosphere and giving a higher than normal liquid content. I can't say I've seen this before on the Espace, but I couldn't think of how else water was getting in there. Thanks for the feedback. Roy
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colin4255
Sr. Member
Posts: 119
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« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2011, 11:30:37 pm » |
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I will let you know more when we get the intercooler off. It looks like we have to remove the intercooler, radiator and air con rad all in one and then split them? Its not very clear even from the files in the vault, but the vague instructions suggest they all come off as one unit?
The car is running Ok basically in any case, though I have not driven it very far. Consensus is the intercooler is at least mostly blocked and everyone seems to think this is the cause of the high levels of condensation (as no other explanation seems to fit so far as water just can't get into the system from anywhereeven if its leaking). If the intercooler had split, the car would have little or no turbo boost and would surely run like a bag of nails?
I have reported elsewhere on this forum an on-going issue with the air mass meter and its inability to read airflow and temperature accurately. Renault fitted three of them now under warranty after the first new one failed and cannot figure it out. People have told me a partially blocked intercooler could cause this issue too, so maybe it is indeed the problem?
Interestingly, I dumped that gooed up valve into a jug of brake cleaner last night, let it soak for a while, rinsed it off and despite its appearance in the photo, most of what was left in the fluid was water with only a small amount of black sooty deposit. I'll bet there were three tablespoons of water sat at the bottom of the jug?
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colin4255
Sr. Member
Posts: 119
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« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2011, 10:15:31 pm » |
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Me again... It seems that when the garage bled the water system they had the heater turned off. Some checking reveals its likely the heater matrixes had an air lock in them. Its fine now. We put about as much extra water in it as 1 and half expansion tanks worth and its not lost any since. Now interestingly Renaultbillier told me in another post on this forum that my air mass meter issues may be down to a failing intercooler. He was 100% correct. Without even telling me the garage re-connected the AMM when they replaced the intercooler and I have driven about 200 miles with it working perfectly. I should have listened 3 months ago!!! Take note guys... the people on this forum know their stuff.
I will keep you posted, but as a matter of interest we cut open the intercooler and apart from having a small split at one end, it was about 75% blocked solid with crap. My guess is its not ever been changed in the 9 years the car has been on the road. I have had it 4 years and religiously serviced it, used the best oil, changed my air filters every 7500 miles, and only ever put top quality diesel in it like shell V-power or Total Excellium etc. yet it just goes to show how much crap these things put through the EGR system??
One final point. The garage that did this job were a company called BE Automotive based in Louth, Lincolnshire, UK. They charged me £390 including taxes, £160 of which was the cost of the intercooler which they supplied at cost and showed me their suppliers bill. At the same time, I had them fit a new A/C Compressor I had bought a while back (as mine had a crack in the casting and was losing gas). They fitted a new drive belt and tensioner, re-gassed the air con system, cleaned out the EGR housing and valve and all the Intercooler and turbo pipes - in fact did an outstanding job all for the £390.
And they had never done this job on an espace before and I am guessing it took them quite a long time to sort out.
I will keep you all posted!
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