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Author Topic: History lesson?  (Read 10000 times)
lewisman
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« on: May 18, 2009, 09:34:44 pm »

But not because of Renault geniality, but because they had one requirement - stopping the production of Murena! They knew about project 4S (2,2 with 16V technology and cca 180PS) and is fact that Murena was much better than Fuego (with all in front) and don't think that engine behind the rear axle in Alpine is better than middle-engined Murena. If Murena had 2,2 16v and PRV V6, than Alpine A310 would not had any chance. So Matra decided to stop Murena and start to produce the Espace with Renault components  Sad and how it was unsuccesfull is known very well...  Roll Eyes thank you very much PSA!  Roll Eyes

Michal

Where have you got this information from?  It all sounds like a load of nonsense to me as I do not believe for a minute that Renault started building the Espace to stop Matra making murenas.

The murena was much more expensive than a Fuego which was front wheel drive and had four seats - albeit not much rear legroom.
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roy4matra
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« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2009, 11:46:10 pm »

The Murena was much more expensive than a Fuego...

'Much more expensive'.  Where do you get the figures to support that statement David?  The Murena was an extremely cheap car at the time.

Fact: Renault Fuego GTX was £6888 in 1981 in the U.K. whilst the Murena 2.2 was £6900 taxes paid!  (A 1.6 Murena was only £5900 which was actually cheaper than the Bagheera had been, adjust for time difference)  A Lotus Esprit 2.2 was £15,270!!  I know as I bought my Murena new and researched the prices of various cars at the time.  In fact my Murena 2.2 was even cheaper than the highest price Cortina which was something like £7200!

I have seen this statement a number of times about the Murena being expensive and I don't know where it comes from.  The Bagheera was overpriced in this country, particularly for it's power output, but I always thought the Murena was under-priced, not that I was complaining.  It gave me a chance to buy new my 'supercar'.  I still think it is the best looking, and all round practical sports car ever.

In terms of a history lesson, I too have heard it stated that the Murena was considered a threat to the Fuego, but personally I think it was too much a threat to the Alpine which was nearly three times the price, and the Fuego thing was a smoke screen for the threat to the Alpine.

Roy
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 11:50:07 pm by roy4matra » Logged

suffolkpete
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« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2009, 08:33:48 am »

Oh dear!  All these conspiracy theories!  I think it was more a case of "Not invented here" syndrome at PSA.  They phased out all the models they had inherited from Chrysler/Simca within a few years and historically were never really interested in building sports cars.  They preferred to concentrate on the 205 GTi, which, commercially, was probably the right decision.  I don't think it's valid to compare prices in the UK.  The Murena was never going to sell there because it was only available with left hand drive.
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michaltalbot
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« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2009, 09:02:35 am »

All facts are in the book Philippe Guedon L'homme de l'Espace (ETAI), there are all datas from meetings between Matra and PSA, and than Matra and Renault. And the fact that Murena was stopped because of contract between Matra and Renault is written in book Matra la passion de l'innovation automobile (Hachette). Also I have old Czechoslovak magazines Automobil from that time and there is written the same. Matra under PSA was not in need to stop the production, they have prepared the version 4S (16V).
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roy4matra
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« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2009, 09:06:02 am »

Oh dear!  All these conspiracy theories!  I think it was more a case of "Not invented here" syndrome at PSA.  They phased out all the models they had inherited from Chrysler/Simca within a few years and historically were never really interested in building sports cars.  They preferred to concentrate on the 205 GTi, which, commercially, was probably the right decision.

PSA didn't phase out the Murena.  In fact, personally I think PSA were stupid.  Why did they buy Chrysler France at all?  They didn't need any of the models which were mostly old and the new one about to come out (Tagora) was a direct competitor to their 604 and was a large car just when these were not big sellers!  Having taken over Chrysler France (Simca) the range needed new models that could sell, and the two that didn't compete with anything they had, was the Murena and the latest project which eventually became the Espace.  But they didn't try to rescue anything and simply phased out everything including the new Talbot name within a few years.  So back to my question - why did they bother buying Chrysler France in the first place?

As for Renault, we know that Renault wanted a family vehicle in their range and had worked on several examples already.  So they were enthusiastic about the Espace prototype right from the beginning, especially as much of the work had already been done and it wasn't going to cost them a great deal - remember they were not in a great financial situation at the time too.  As to whether the move to kill the Murena because it was a threat to any of their models has any validity is anyone's guess.  It is more likely that Matra took the decision that since they had limited factory capacity at that time, and they would henceforth be working with Renault, so links with and parts from PSA would cause problems, allied to the fact that to re-engineer the Murena for Renault mechanics would require new type approval and therefore cost too much, are what really made them decide to end it.

Quote
I don't think it's valid to compare prices in the UK.  The Murena was never going to sell there because it was only available with left hand drive.

As far as I'm concerned, whether you compare U.K. prices or European prices, the Murena was still cheap and not 'Much more expensive' as stated, which is what I was correcting.  The Murena 2.2 was just £5300 before tax in Belgium in 1981.  That was not expensive in 1981 by any standard.

Roy
« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 10:41:48 am by roy4matra » Logged

michaltalbot
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« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2009, 09:14:03 am »

Well, I have to go to my work, but...  Grin I had to find the pricelists, so in 1982 in Germany the price of Murena 2,2 was 25.600,-DM and Fuego GTX (2,0 110PS) was 23.900,-DM
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roy4matra
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« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2009, 09:54:54 am »

Well, I have to go to my work, but...  Grin I had to find the pricelists, so in 1982 in Germany the price of Murena 2,2 was 25.600,-DM and Fuego GTX (2,0 110PS) was 23.900,-DM

Therefore the Murena was just 7% more in Germany.  That is not 'Much more expensive'.  I rest my case. :-)

The prices of all cars in all countries tends to vary depending on what the marketing people think they can sell a particular model for in their marketplace, and how much profit they want to get!  For instance some years ago Mercedes cars in Britain were always much higher relatively than in Germany as they pushed the brand up market here and attempted to compete with Rolls.

The point is that in 1982, the Murena was really a competitor to the Lotus Esprit except that it didn't have as much power (but it had better reliability).  It was hand made by a small company using many parts from the larger companies.  It was mid-engined, glass-fibre on a galvanised chassis, had disc brakes all round, most items were standard (on the 2.2 model the only original extra was metallic paint) so it had alloy wheels, 60% profile tyres (rare at the time) electric windows, tinted glass, etc.  Yet the Lotus was more than twice the price!  That is what I call much more expensive.  The nearest true competitors on price were the Mazda RX7 or Porsche 924 and both were several thousand pounds more, with a lower specification in the case of the 924.

The Murena was a proper sports car and therefore not a competitor to the Fuego or Sirocco or any other front wheel drive saloon based coupe in my opinion.  They are simply not in the same league.  Performance is not the factor.  You can buy a Skyline GT-R that will out-perform most cars but that does not, and never will make it a sports car.  The marketing people have corrupted many of the car designations, particularly the 'GT'.  GT stands for Grand Turisimo and covers cars like Ferrari, Aston Martin, etc.  Putting 'GT' on a 'Hot Hatch' does not make it a GT!

So the Murena was priced at a similar price to the saloon based coupes of its time, and much cheaper than it's real category competitors.

Roy
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krede
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« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2009, 11:57:19 am »

I agree on the cost issue… even though it was never officially imported and marketed in Denmark the prices for the Murena was quite reasonable for a car of its type (It cost about the same as a vw scirocco with the same level of kit)… its only later when the “S” model is introduced that the prices go through the roof.
Keeping it’s heritage in mind, I don’t agree that the Murena should ever be seen as competition to the Esprit, the fact that the Lotus is TWICE the price rules this out to me… if not then from a marketing standpoint Wink . In my (feeble) mind the Lotus was designed from the start out as an “all out” super car to compete with the smaller Ferrari , Lamborghini Masaratti models. Whether it met those goals are not for me to decide, having never driven one.
As I see it, the Matra was intended much more as a “peoples” sports car in line with the Bagheera rx7 and 924 that you mention. There have been made to many compromises in its construction, and its far to practical for it to be anything else.
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2009, 12:15:44 pm »

So back to my question - why did they bother buying Chrysler France in the first place?

Chrysler was in deep crisis and needed to get rid of the European business to focus on saving their american. Does it sound like the current situation? Perhaps... In any case, my guess is that the French government were very interested in securing the jobs of factory workers, so they may have put pressure on PSA to accept the offer. Was it 1$ or 1 Franc they paid for the whole operation? The rest is history, as they say...

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1982 Talbot Matra Murena 2.2 prep 142
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suffolkpete
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« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2009, 02:10:08 pm »

Quote
As I see it, the Matra was intended much more as a “peoples” sports car in line with the Bagheera rx7 and 924 that you mention
  I regarded rthe Murena as a French attempt to build a proper sports car that was easy to look after , economical to run and reliable, through being based on mass market car components,  rather like the MG and Triumph sports cars.  In this respect they were very successful.  The problem was that Peugeot had swallowed Citroen and Chrysler in quick succession and were too tied up with launching the 205 and the BX to bother with a low volume niche market product, so if they didn't exactly phase it out, they let it wither.  I should imagine that the opportunity to build the Espace was something of a lifeline, as they could see the way the Murena and Rancho were heading, and they would have been foolish not to take it.
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Oskar
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« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2009, 03:00:17 pm »

how come renault bought matra and not psa?  I see more similar construction on murena and peugeot then with renault
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Lennart Sorth
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« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2009, 01:25:38 am »

how come renault bought matra and not psa?  I see more similar construction on murena and peugeot then with renault
AFAIK Renault only bought shares in Matra, - which Matra btw later bought back.

I think it had all to do with the Espace - as Roy wrote, Renault were looking for something along those lines, when Matra presented an almost finished design to them (which Talbot had turned down, I guess due to lack of funds for what might look as an adventurous investment.)

/Lennart
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Lennart.Sorth@matrasport.dk
Murena 1983 1.9i silver // Honda e '20 Charge Yellow  // VW Polo '22 1.0 tsi silver//
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