Alternative Parts

[klumzer]

Thanks.
It is nice to know. R12 is very rare in Hungary, but there is a Rumanian version the Dacia 1300. Probably it has the same indicator, but the price is much cheaper. ~12Euro a complete indicator (plate+seal+lens). I will check it.
I only need new rubber seals, others are in very good condition. But always good to have some spares...

If I am not mistaken R12 has the same headlights as Bagheera. So Dacia can provide a cheap alternative for Bagheera owners. Although Dacia spares can be rare in western countries...

[klumzer]

Yes, the front indicator of Dacia 1300 can be used on Murena. It has some differences, but looks the same. The housing is made of plastic so no corrosion and the rear seals are much better than the original ones, but the electric connectors need some modification. The diaphragm between the two bulbs is integrated to the plastic housing but you can use the original lenses if you want. Very cheap, lens 1.7 Euro, complete 7.4 Euro (each), but not easy to find.

In this case "original" means: it was installed on my car when I bought it.

[klumzer]

Just to let see the difference between a waterpump for Tagora and Murena.
The Tagora pump (QCP1011) is much higher.

Can I use the parts (shaft and pulley) of the Tagora pump for repair on similar way as you did with the 1.6 pump?

A smartass welded my pulley to the shaft...   So probably I need a new pulley which would be available with a new Tagora pump.

[uberprutser]

Here's a picture of a Tagora 2.2 GLS pulley. I don't think you can use it on the Murena, at least not without some serious modifications. And new water pumps almost never come with new pulleys.



This summer I modified a Tagora pump. The Famous QCP1011. These are the steps I did. And I think they will probably also work for the 505 turbo and other pump brands.

1. Remove the impeller.
2. Press out the shaft and bearing from the impeller side. For the QCP1011 pump it's no problem to press on the shaft, it won't damage the bearing. Don't try to press it out from the other side you will damage the seal cartridge. A little heat may help but is probably not needed. If you are lucky like me, the seal cartridge will stay in place and you won't have to use any kind of sealer to remount it.
3. Shorten the impeller end of the shaft by about 1 cm. Please make your own measurements using the old pump for reference. I am writing this from memory.
4. Grind down the pump housing by about 9mm. Again, take your own measurements. Using a mill is great but an angle grinder will also work just fine.
5. Grind the sensor mount point of the pump housing. If you forget to do this you will damage you pulley when pressing it on the shaft. It cost me my pulley
6. Press the shaft and bearing back into the pump housing.
7. Press on the impeller.
8. Press on the pulley making sure it is mounted at the same hight as on the old pump and cut down the shaft.

And you are done. Mine seems to be working just fine.

[klumzer]

Thanks for the guide. It can be useful.

Catalogs show the 2.2 Tagora pump with pulley and it looks similar to the original one.

[Oetker]

Thanks for the guide. It can be useful.

Catalogs show the 2.2 Tagora pump with pulley and it looks similar to the original one.

The difference between Tagora pump (new one) and Murena pump is hight and it has a different impeller.
I don't know howmuch difference there is in waterflow because of this.


Herman

[roy4matra]

The difference between Tagora pump (new one) and Murena pump is hight and it has a different impeller.
I don't know howmuch difference there is in waterflow because of this.

Herman

First the difference in casting height is nowhere near 9 mm as someone else has written.  It is only 5mm.  This has been on my website for some years.  Standard Murena and early Tagora pumps had a casting depth of 78 mm and the later Tagora pumps are 83 mm.  I don't understand why they changed them, but I definitely used to fit the Tagora pumps to the Murena without any modification to the casting in the early days as they were the same.  You only had to cut off the mounting for the fan clutch carbon contact and cut down the shaft after pressing on the pulley.

The reason for the change may have to do with something I was unaware of until recently.  Apparently there are some of these water pumps with alloy impellers.  All the pumps I have ever had or stripped have had metal (steel or phosphor bronze?) impellers.  To me, the metal impellers should be better, whilst the vanes of the alloy ones could corrode away in the coolant leaving you with reduced water flow.

However, since there are two types, the Simon repair kits allow for this and the seal for the alloy impeller is deeper and has what appears to be a ceramic seal.  If this is correct, then this is a much better seal arrangement than the plain carbon.  I am modifying a pump to use the ceramic seal with the metal impeller which should provide the best pump possible.

More about this later when I have tested one ...

Roy

[Oetker]

Quote Roy
However, since there are two types, the Simon repair kits allow for this and the seal for the alloy impeller is deeper and has what appears to be a ceramic seal.  If this is correct, then this is a much better seal arrangement than the plain rubber.  I am modifying a pump to use the ceramic seal with the metal impeller which should provide the best pump possible.
===================================================================

Does Simon provide the Iron impeller with the kit?
The pump in my 2.2 was with a allu impeller.
The pump on the pic is a Quinton Hazel QCP1011 amd was a lot higher.
15 mm in fact.



The Quinton Hazel is maybe usable for reviving yhe pump but needs a 1.6 bearing I think.


Both impellers together.


Herman

[roy4matra]

Quote Roy
However, since there are two types, the Simon repair kits allow for this and the seal for the alloy impeller is deeper and has what appears to be a ceramic seal.  If this is correct, then this is a much better seal arrangement than the plain rubber.  I am modifying a pump to use the ceramic seal with the metal impeller which should provide the best pump possible.
===================================================================

Does Simon provide the Iron impeller with the kit?

No.  His kit is designed so that you replace like for like.  In other words, if you have a pump with an alloy impeller, you replace the bearing and seal using the other bits from your original.  If you have a pump with the steel impeller, you are supposed to take the seal apart and discard the ceramic bit and rebuild using the rest.  What I am attempting is to use the steel impeller with the complete seal including ceramic seal (which is not how the kit is meant to be used but might produce a better pump).

The pump in my 2.2 was with a allu impeller.

That is the first I have ever seen.  Thanks for the photos.  Can you measure the casting height for me please.  i.e gasket face to the top of the 'nose' as it will be interesting to compare that to the pumps with steel impellers.

The pump on the pic is a Quinton Hazel QCP1011 amd was a lot higher.
15 mm in fact.

The Quinton Hazell pump should be 83 mm depth, so if that is truly 15 mm higher than a Murena one that has an alloy impeller, it would suggest the alloy pump housing is only 68 mm not 78 mm as a normal one.  Since the seal for that version is deeper, that means the place where the seal fits inside the housing must be deeper into the casting too.  Can you measure the depth from the gasket face to the bottom of the recess face where the seal fits.

If as I suspect the casting depth of the alloy impeller pump is only 68 mm, then the shaft length through the bearing must be 10 mm shorter too.

The bearing and shaft for the Quinton Hazell pump will be much longer as the casing is deeper.  In fact it is the same as the bearing and shaft used in the 1.6 (and 1.4 and 1.3) pumps.

Since the Simon kit new bearing and shaft has to fit the pumps with steel impeller it must be the longer one as it certainly fits - I have already done one overhaul.

The Quinton Hazel is maybe usable for reviving yhe pump but needs a 1.6 bearing I think.

I don't understand this comment.  The Quinton Hazell pump already has the same bearing and shaft as the 1.6 pump as I know from those I have here.

Both impellers together.

Herman

Thanks that shows just what I expected.  The boss of the alloy impeller is shorter which allows the extra length of the longer seal with ceramic addition.

Roy

[Oetker]

Sorry Roy, but the pumps are no longer in my possession.
It's been a few years since.
I fixed my pump with the rubber seal and bearing from a 1.6 pump.
I past the QH pomp to a fellow member and as far as I know he used a saw to shorten the 15mm.
He used a bearing from a Bagheera/Murena pump and used the ceramic seal that was in the QH pump.
Found some pics from that job.

Bearing from 1.6 pump.





Pics Godfried

It's running for a while in a S now so can't help.

[roy4matra]

The pump in this picture is a Quinton Hazel QCP1011.


A QH QCP1011 pump *with a steel impeller* has a casting depth of 83 mm from gasket face to the nose of the pump. (The surface where the ruler is resting on in this picture)
A Murena pump *with steel impeller* has a casting depth of 78 mm and the shaft sticking out of the nose is shorter.

To convert a QCP1011 pump to a Murena pump involves the following only.
1) Cut off the small bracket with the thread that holds the contact that is used for the Tagora fan clutch as that will get in the way of the pulley.
2) Press the bearing into the pump a further 5 mm, and cut off 5 mm from the nose of the pump casting so the bearing is now flush with the nose again.
3) Since pressing the bearing in by 5 mm will have moved the impeller away from the seal and casting inside the pump, you have to press the impeller back close to the casting again without moving the bearing.  The tips of the impeller should be approx. 0.35 mm (15 thou) from the casting.
4) You now press the pulley on to the shaft without moving the bearing or impeller so it must be supported correctly.  The pulley is pressed much closer to the casting so the vee belt runs much closer to the pump than it does on the Tagora.  I can't find my dimension for this at the moment but I'll check and put it in here later.  If you make a note from the Murena pump before you strip it, then you will know where it needs to be.
5) Finally, you cut off the excess shaft sticking out of the pulley so it is flush.  The shaft is longer since the Tagora required it, but the Murena does not.

Cutting the casting and the shaft can be done with a hacksaw as the alloy casing is soft and the shaft is not hardened.  Scribe a line first around the nose of the casing 5mm in from the edge to keep your cut square.  Use a file to smooth off the edges.

You now have a Murena pump with steel impeller and the casting depth is 78 mm.

You should not cut off more than 5 mm from the casing or reduce it below the 78 mm.  The steel impeller is deeper than the alloy one and if you reduce the casing depth too much the impeller will stick out even more and there is a danger it will foul when the pump is bolted onto the engine.


The long bearing and shaft and the brass casing with black seal on the right in the photo below plus the steel impeller, are the parts normally fitted in the QCP1011 pump.  (The bearing and seal are the same as used in the 1.6 pump but that has a different impeller with the vanes of the impeller going away from the pump housing)



The shorter bearing and shaft with the ceramic seal assembly still on it (in the picture above) are from a pump with an alloy seal and I've never seen a Quinton Hazell QCP1011 pump (or any other for that matter) with an alloy impeller.  If you do ever come across one (and I would like to know about it please!), the above instructions may not be correct as the dimensions will probably be different.

A Quinton Hazell pump *never* had a ceramic seal.  The steel impeller is pressed directly against the black seal.
(ceramic seals are white and the black carbon seal is pressed against the ceramic seal)

Roy

[Oetker]

Wow men you're early.


On this pics the circled parts came of the QCP 1011.
The steel impeller was directly against the black seal with no rubber invalved.
At first I didn't understand how this could be waterproof.
I asked a Murena  specialist how this works.
Het told me the black ring is ceramic material and lubricated by the water that circulate and indeed it looks like ceramic.
The pump came in the original tatty box, but was bought from a closing firm for very low price.
Maybe the pump and box didn't belong together.
I also had a Dolz pump and that has the rubber seal.
The allu impeller and other bearing belonged to the Murena pump that was in my car.
That is what I know about it but I only am busy with this cars since 2007 as a hobby.
Waterpumps are difficult to find to get al history back about it.

Herman

[roy4matra]

Wow men you're early.

Yes, I couldn't sleep (I've been having a pain in my left arm for some time that the NHS still haven't got around to doing anything about yet - well it's only been happening since Easter!!) so I thought I would do something useful to use my time. :-)

On this pics the circled parts came of the QCP 1011.
The steel impeller was directly against the black seal with no rubber invalved.

Yes I agree and that black seal, as you say is probably carbon, but I found that type unreliable as they tend to crack and leak.

Others used a rubber seal which were more reliable.

The pump came in the original tatty box, but was bought from a closing firm for very low price.
Maybe the pump and box didn't belong together.

No it looks correct and I apologise for implying they were all rubber.  Some like the one in the picture were not, but the better ones I found like the Dolz used rubber seals.

I also had a Dolz pump and that has the rubber seal.
The allu impeller and other bearing belonged to the Murena pump that was in my car.
That is what I know about it but I only am busy with this cars since 2007 as a hobby.
Waterpumps are difficult to find to get al history back about it.

Herman

I guessed the aluminium impeller and short bearing/shaft was from one you had stripped.  It is interesting to see one because as I said, I have never seen one here.  I wonder when they started making them?  Was this a production item from the Talbot period or is this something that someone made as a replacement after the car production had ended?  I guess we'll never know.

Roy

[Oetker]

I looked back to some info I gathered when you told me the alu impeller is rare.
I taught  it was standard.
In that case you can use this making a working pump.



on the right the 1.6 bearing and seal the left came from the Murena pump with alu impeller. (Dolz)


Then you end up with this.


This 1.6 pumps you can find for peanuts. (paid GBP 10) and are in simca 1100 peugeot 309 and some 205.
Most have 16 mm axle and the bearing is the same but there are versions that have 16mm axle but the impeller side is smaller.(found out later),



Maybe interesting to know that the seals on the next picture has the same diameter. on the point it's pressed in the pump.





There are also1.6 pumps with the ceramic seals.

pic Urbain

I didn't verify because I only had 1 pump but have the believing that the ceramic seal can be replaced by the rubber seal.

The rubber seals came from a Italian firm. the type is UGH-2 (universal seal).
http://www.meccanotecnicaumbra.com/uwp.php?mainMenuItemToSlide=3
I did contact this firm to ask if they were interested selling some.
Also had contact with Dolz but run with my head against brick walls.
Because of that I stopped investigation and believe me that I put a lot of effort in it.
This was at a time no pump was to be found but now Simon got a solution it's not a big problem anymore.
If I ever find a original Murena pump (What brand is it anyway ?) I still have a 1.6 pump with rubber seal to play with it.
Of-course I will report if I find out.

Herman

[roy4matra]

I too have had great trouble with Dolz, just trying to get them to respond!  They simply ignore my letters and emails.

You can no longer get the correct 2.2 water pumps from Dolz as they list the T116 as the pump for both the 1.6 Murena and 2.2 Murena or Tagora!!  Which is of course incorrect.  The correct Dolz pump for the 2.2 Murena is a T158 and the 2.2 Tagora is a T118 (the Murena has a pulley fitted whilst the Tagora one does not).  I have two Dolz pumps in their boxes showing the correct number, but they still don't want to correct their faults.

Since their website and download catalogue are wrong and they won't correct them, or even acknowledge my pleas to get them corrected, I have had a warning on my website for over a year.

Now Simon can supply kits it is not the big problem it was a short while ago.

Roy