Timing belt change on 24v

[Anders Dinsen]

I've started a new thread about this following Will's post on 'marketplace'...:

Apparently Renault now have a policy of changing the complete clutch - master, slave, full clutch and flywheel - when any one component fails to ensure that the job is completed in one hit.

This is the same Renault that yesterday told me that if they dropped my engine to change the timing belt they wouldn't change the spark plugs - they'd have it back again in another 20k miles to drop the engine again to change the plugs. I hope they don't give Alonso this much grief.

Needless to say my Espace won't be going to Renault for its timing belt, but it's still going to cost me over 1000GBP  as the whole kit of belt + wearing parts + new modified waterpump is over 500GBP alone

If you dare removing the drivetrain yourself from the car (I've been told that the best way to do it if you don't have a small lift to lower the engine down from the car, is to build up a stable platform under the under the engine and gearbox - and once you have it sitting stable on it and removed all engine- and gearbox mounts - lifting the car off the drivetrain. Then the timing belt and stuff is easy enough to get access to and I'm sure you can do it yourself.

I didn't know the waterpump was changed... do you know how?

I can contact my local Renault parts breaker here to see if he can do it cheaper if you want.

Cheers,
Anders

[Will Falconer]

Thanks Anders, but I'm prepared to pay for the parts and I have a very good Citroen specialist who works on Espaces too.

I only called up the Renault franchise to see if they had a special price for this major job and they were clearly reluctant to quote me a price at all. Nor did they tell me about the water pump upgrade, that was yet another Citroen specialist who knew about it.

Presumably they've upgraded the waterpump to pass a higher flow of water.

[Anders Dinsen]

It sounds like your car will be in good hands, after all it's the same machine in the Peugeots and Citroens.

I've got the invoice from the Renault dealer in southern Germany that did the change on my 24v in 2004 - before I bought it. I don't have the invoice with me here, but it lists a fixed price for the belt change and another for the spark plugs, but that this was without the parts - they were charged individually with full spec and part numbers etc, even down to the smallest bolt or o-ring.

In total, including brake discs, radiator, water pump and more, it ran up to more than 3000 EUR!

[Will Falconer]

My timing belt is finally being changed on Monday.

But today in 25C heat in very slow traffic it overheated. Temp gauge maxed out, red overheating sign flashed up.
I turned the A/C off, heater on, and sped down a few side roads to avoid the traffic and it eventually went back to normal.

I think this may be the reason for the upgraded waterpump. It suffers from the 2.2 Murena problem of too small a flow through the pump  and extended near-idling as it did today in town proved too much.  I've noticed in this hot weather that the fan cycles in frequently, as if the radiator is plenty big enough but the pump isn't.

Good old Matra!  They never got some things right. I noticed recently that the black  hinges on my opening tailgate glass  were corroding just like Bagheera ones do!

[Anders Dinsen]

My timing belt is finally being changed on Monday.

Woohoo! Interesting to hear how it turns out.

But today in 25C heat in very slow traffic it overheated. ...

I think this may be the reason for the upgraded waterpump.

Very probable. Ours have the upgraded waterpump fitted and we have never seen the water temp move over the four bars.

Good old Matra!  They never got some things right.

Only in this case the engine is a co-design between Renault and PSA and was used in the same configuration in Languna and Peugeot 406, 605 and I wouldn't expect them to be different in this place. Would you?
The part number of the water pump is 96 35 018 180 - the Matra parts (and Alpine parts I've been told) all start with 60 in the Renault system, so this is not unique to Espace.

I noticed recently that the black hinges on my opening tailgate glass were corroding just like Bagheera ones do!

Here in Denmark they rot after only a few years - and is one of the more sold Espace-parts from our Renault part breaker. It should be one of the first items you would put in your catalogue if decide to extend your collection with Espace-parts, Will! I renewed them on my car about a month ago, on one of them the paint had fallen off completely after only 5 years! They were ok last year when I picked the car up in Frankfurt, but one winter in Denmark killed that one completely, though it was still opening and closing without problems. I was thinking if it would be possible to have them sand blasted and painted again? Being a Matra part they are quite expensive!

- Anders

[Will Falconer]

Matra's speciality was in assembling cars from various parts bins, but making changes where necessary.  The 2.2 waterpump
is a case in point where the Tagora one would not have been suitable for the higher temperatures of the mid-engine configuration and distance from the radiator.  So they changed it. Actually they didn't quite get it right because the throughput is still too low at idle. 

Matra had their wonderful Mortefontaine test track to prove  whether things worked or not. I wonder whether they questioned the strenghth of the PSA waterpump  when they fitted the 24v to the Espace or if their relationship with Renault forbade it until the other PSA partners agreed that an upgrade was essential...

[Anders Dinsen]

Matra had their wonderful Mortefontaine test track to prove  whether things worked or not. I wonder whether they questioned the strenghth of the PSA waterpump  when they fitted the 24v to the Espace or if their relationship with Renault forbade it until the other PSA partners agreed that an upgrade was essential...

Not unlikely...

Though another explanation would have been that they did not run the engine with 50/50 mixture of anti freeze and water, but used more water. Anti freeze reduces the cooling properties of the water quite considerably, which is well known in racing where they run pure destilled water. I have seen one product advertised that could help this, it's called "Water wetter" which sounds like something that will never work, and as I can find no technical information on it, it could be just marketing hype - but some racing people are reporting quite good results - and I found this info the other day that is at least somewhat technical:
http://www.redlineoil.com/whitePaper/17.pdf

The product is not available for sale here in Denmark, which is probably because they will not disclose the contents, but in the UK (where pollution is not an issue???) I have seen it rom Demon Tweeks (motorsports equipment).

Cheers,
- Anders

[Will Falconer]

My car finally had its new timing belt and associated idlers.

The 'upgraded' waterpump appears to only differ in that the body is different in order to fit against a modified idler. But I couldn't compare the pumps side by side to check for water moving ability.

I had one teething problem of a misfire, but I'd had this before and found for myself that the engine ECU hadn'd been located properly. The casing seems to need to earth back to the chassis.

Now we are all set for the next 100,000km...