Rear gear pivot

[Titus]

Some advice please all.

Is it possible to get apart this gear pivot. I've taken out the screw in the top square housing and nothing wants to come apart easily. I don't want to force it but the action is very stiff and needs greasing.

[suffolkpete]

There's an exploded view of the assembly in my parts list so it must come apart.  As far as I can tell, the screw screws into a threaded key that engages with a flat on the vertical rod, rather like the cotter pin on a bicycle crank.  From your photo, that key (clavette in the parts list) still seems to be in place and should be gently tapped out.  Try screwing the screw back in until it's not quite home and giving it a tap on the end.  Be gentle though, I'm relying on a Will Falconer badly copied parts list and I could be wrong.  It should then all come apart, there seem to be a few bushes and washers, so make sure you keep them in the right order.

[Titus]

Thanks Peter,

I took out the screw and put a punch against the threaded bit it locates into and tapped it, not too hard, but that didn't move. Is that what you suggest? I may be being too careful but it must come appart.

As you know I have the sump off to expose the crank/big end bearings. I have standard bearings and need new ones to replace. I'm looking for them via the Simca Club but maybe others have sources here. You mentioned big ends having paint marks of red or blue. Mine have blue/green. Does that mean standard?

On the big end shells it reads 61820-CP

On the crank: Oil ones 1N 55756900   -Fm std 61821 CPU
On the others: 1H 55752100   -Fm std 61823 CPL


New to this folks so any advice welcome. Thanks.

[suffolkpete]

I took out the screw and put a punch against the threaded bit it locates into and tapped it, not too hard, but that didn't move. Is that what you suggest?

  Yes it was, but I think I'd use something flat, the pointed end of a punch might do some damage.
I'm getting a bit out of my depth with the bearing shells.    There are two sizes of standard, slightly different in diameter, colour-coded red and blue and replacements must be of the same type.  It sounds as if you have blue.  Mine were red, identified by a splash of red paint on the con-rods.  I got all the parts I needed from my local motor factors, Motor Parts Direct.  It took about 4 days but they had everything I needed.  Be very careful when you talk to them, Rootes/Chrysler (predecessor of Talbot in the UK) produced a 1592 cc engine which is completely different from the Simca unit.  Also make sure they understand the difference between red and blue shells.  Their engine specialist at the Ipswich branch was very helpful though. One of the Simca Club's parts specialists is Colin Hill who lives a short distance from me, although I've never met him.  I think he may even have owned my car for a time. 
I think at times like this we need Roy, although Spyros, who mostly frequents the Bagheera forum, seems very knowledgeable about these engines.

[Titus]

Be very careful when you talk to them, Rootes/Chrysler (predecessor of Talbot in the UK) produced a 1592 cc engine which is completely different from the Simca unit.

Most interesting and possibly not good. I have that spare engine from a Solara, possibly year 1985. I haven't given it much time but it seems to have a different crank to my Murena one. The block is stamped with 407029 which seems to indicate the 1.6. If it does have a different crank am I wasting my time and money with it?

Seeing the Simca Club this weekend at the Haynes Motor Museum. Colin Hill and Dick Husband may have the parts I need. This car and me are missing out on a rare UK summer

[suffolkpete]

If it does have a different crank am I wasting my time and money with it?

I wouldn't have thought so, manufactureres are always making modifications during the life of a model.  Your Solara engine is a much later build that the one in the Matra.  It will probably also have the later timing gear.  You will have to transfer the Matra sump won't you?  I'd check that the crank doesn't foul it.

[Titus]

There's an exploded view of the assembly in my parts list so it must come apart.  As far as I can tell, the screw screws into a threaded key that engages with a flat on the vertical rod, rather like the cotter pin on a bicycle crank.  From your photo, that key (clavette in the parts list) still seems to be in place and should be gently tapped out.  Try screwing the screw back in until it's not quite home and giving it a tap on the end.  Be gentle though, I'm relying on a Will Falconer badly copied parts list and I could be wrong.  It should then all come apart, there seem to be a few bushes and washers, so make sure you keep them in the right order.

Sorted it thanks Peter,

Put the screw in the threaded key on the other side and with a spanner around it wound in the screw to pull out the key. The part now dismantels. There is a roller bearing top and bottom with an o ring.

[suffolkpete]

You live and learn.  I hadn't realised the key was threaded at both ends, serves me right for being too lazy to look at my own car.  How did you get on with the shells?  If yours are blue then I suspect that you may have a problem.  My contact in MPD explained this by saying that they probably had a batch of out of spec crankshafts and that they had reclaimed them by grinding them slightly undersize and providing special "standard" shells.  These may be scarce now.  I believe, though I'm prepared to be corrected, that the con-rods and caps are all the same size, so if you have the crank reground, the problem goes away.

[Titus]

Well, I was down at The Haynes Motor Museum yesterday with the Simca Club and picked up the crank and big end shells. The Simca/Talbot crowd assure me that standard shells are standard. The numbers I quoted are irrelevant. It depends on who manufactured them. We compared my worn ones with new and all seems fine. Just got to fit them now.

Next job is to remove the crank spigot bearing. The one that the first motion shaft from the gear box locates into. It measures 12.5mm internally which you stated on your car is 11mm. My gearbox is elsewhere as I post so can't measure the shaft input, but if the spigot is worn I will need to replace. Question... how to remove.

[Titus]

I should have said spigot bush not bearing. The one right in the middle pre clean up

[lewisman]

Traditional way of removing brass spigot bushes is to fill with grease and hammer a close fit drift into the centre of the bush.  The grease gets behind the bush and forces it out.

Thats the theory!  Roy might be able to confirm if that works on Simca engine as I can't remember if I replaced the spigot bush when I rebuilt a 1600 engine for my Bagheera (it was 20 odd years ago)

I used to have a spare final drive shaft from an old Simca gearbox that I used for lining up clutch plates.  I suppose that might do as a drift.

[suffolkpete]

I've  measured the spigot bush again, and it's more like 12mm - it's hard to measure with the flywheel in situ.  I ought to excavate the spare gearbox and try to do an accurate measurement.  Not sure what the running clearance should be.  You may not need to replace it, though if they're easily obtainable and you can get the old one out,it's worth doing.

The Simca/Talbot crowd assure me that standard shells are standard

  I was moved to go back through my emails after reading that and this is what Roy wrote to me

You need to measure the con-rods accurately unless you can see any colour coding on them.  The big ends are rated red or blue depending on their bore size (the place where the shells fit).  If they are
43.997 to 44.005 they are red;  44.005 to 44.013 are blue.  In other words the blue shells would be slightly larger diameter on the outside 
where they fit in   the con-rod which was machined very slightly 
bigger.  So although you may only want standard shells in terms of the crank pin diameter, you will want either red or blue to fit the actual con-rods.

The dimensions Roy gives are in mm
Haynes states that the blue crankpins are 0.0004" smaller than the the red, but that the shells are 0.001" thicker.  I suspect that both Roy and Haynes are correct (I'm certainly not going to disagree with Roy!) but I'm not sure what, if anything, would be the consequence of using the wrong ones.

[Titus]

Traditional way of removing brass spigot bushes is to fill with grease and hammer a close fit drift into the centre of the bush.  The grease gets behind the bush and forces it out.

Good advice and thank you. As it happens Mr.Gillard had already suggested that and I'd given it a go with no success. The problem was that the drift I used was not a close enough fit. I stated that the internal measurement of the spigot was 12.5mm. That was an average. It ranges from 12.3 to 12.6 around the inside circumference suggesting it is worn. Also Peter says his is approx 12mm. My input shaft measures 12mm. There needs to be a bit of tolerence but how much I don't know, but at least it needs to be uniform. I'm replacing it anyway in an attempt to cure a vibration at 3200rpm. That is why all is apart.

[lewisman]

I have not found it to be any good on steel parts but it might be worth trying the Locktite freeze spray as the bush will contract more than the steel crank.

[suffolkpete]

Measured my spare input shaft last night and it's 12.56mm.  I think that is a fairly accurate measurement.  I don't think it's the cause of your vibration anyway as the clutch assembly is clamped tight by the pressure plate in normal running.  To be honest, I couldn't hear a vibration anyway apart from a slight resonance, although, being somewhat older than you, my hearing isn't as acute.  My family always tells me I have the televison too loud