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Author Topic: EBC brake pads  (Read 7845 times)
Martin Tyas
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Espace, because it's worth it!


« on: June 30, 2010, 10:50:16 pm »

I am coming up ready for some new rear pads and wondered if anyone had any experience of EBC. They do the Greenstuff version for the fronts but only Redstuff or Yellowstuff for the rear. The Yellow ones are getting toward race spec so not for me anyway.
I don't have an issue with how well my Espace decelerates or stops under braking or with brake fade, the only reason I am looking at EBC is to reduce the level of brake dust to help avoid having to spend so much time keeping the alloys clean and avoid them getting permanently tarnished if left too long.
What I don't understand, unless I am missing something, is if EBC brake pads are as good as people would have you believe then why are they not fitted by manufacturer's. I know they are more expensive than standard pads and so the economics would rule out fitment on smaller lower cost vehicles and any difference in braking performance less noticeable anyway on lower performance cars but they don't seem to be fitted to larger, prestige or performance cars as standard.
So are they any better than standard pads or is it just marketing hype?

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2010, 06:18:45 am »

It's not marketing hype. I've been running Green Stuff on both my Espace and Murena, and they are very good. The idea is the same as used in motorsport for years, that the pad coats the brake disk slightly during use. This coating effectively increases the coefficient of friction, improving braking force. A side effect is less wear on the brake disk. Is there a downside? Yes there is - the pads needs to warm up before the coating "melts off", so the first few low speed km are usually done with slightly less effective brake power. Green Stuff is a good compromise for road use, where yellow and red are only for track use.

This initially lower braking effect is probably the reason why manufacturers don't use them.

About the level of brake dust: I think their marketing is correct - I've just never noticed.

All that said, I'm not using them on my Espace any more. The front pads were slightly too small and this caused a good amount of annoying rattleing. Also, the Espace with it's enormous brakes really doe not need the extra "stopping power". It has plenty enough to cause a safety shut off of the engine if used liberally!

/Anders
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1982 Talbot Matra Murena 2.2 prep 142
2017 BMW i3 "Charged Professional" 94Ah

Used to own:
2001 Renault Matra Grand Espace "The Race" V6 24v
1997 Renault Matra Espace 2.0 8V
1987 Renault Matra Espace J11 2.2
Martin Tyas
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Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2010, 07:02:57 am »

Thanks Anders, it's good to get a perspective from someone who has actually tried them.

As I mentioned I don't have any issue with the stopping power of the Espace, especially as mine has the 305mm front discs. It was the dust issue that I was wanting to address. Having said how large the front brakes are I have always been surprised how small the pads are on the rear.

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
roy4matra
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« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2010, 12:33:02 pm »

I am coming up ready for some new rear pads and wondered if anyone had any experience of EBC...

Yes, I have Martin, and it is not just marketing hype.  They really are better.  Yes they are slightly more expensive, but so far the volumes are lower so that is to be expected.  If ever the manufacturers get around to fitting them, the prices could drop.

Quote
They do the Greenstuff version for the fronts but only Redstuff or Yellowstuff for the rear. The Yellow ones are getting toward race spec so not for me anyway.

In which case you should only fit the Greenstuff to the front and normal pads on the rear, if you fit these Kelvar pads.  You must not use them on the rear only or higher rated ones on the rear than the front.

Quote
I don't have an issue with how well my Espace decelerates or stops under braking or with brake fade, the only reason I am looking at EBC is to reduce the level of brake dust...

They will certainly help with this.  I have them on my Espace Quadra (as well as my Murena) and both keep their wheels cleaner than with non-asbestos pads.  I am lucky since Greenstuff are available for front and rear of my Quadra.  And the braking is really strong on the Quadra.

Regarding what Anders has written, the coating now supplied on the latest EBC pads is bedding in compound.  The reason for this (and other pads often have it too) is that non-asbestos pads tend to score discs, and so this helps to clean the discs for the new pads.  Therefore, as with ALL new brake pads of any type, you must bed them in carefully over a short period before they will produce full braking effort.  Previously without a bedding in layer you might need to cover 200 miles before the pads would give full braking effort.

If you fit new discs, new pads will bed in very quickly as the surface is flat, and this bedding in compound is not really needed.

The reason you only have quite small pads at the rear compared to the front, is that the front does almost all the work on front wheel drive cars (possibly as much as 85% at times) so they need to be much bigger to cope with the heat and wear.

One reason I believe (being cynical as I am!) that manufacturers do not fit these Kevlar pads, is that they like the fact that you need new discs for ever two sets of pads as non-asbestos pads wear the discs badly.  Kevlar ones, like the old asbestos pads, do not.  So manufacturers can sell you new expensive discs on your expensive cars!

Roy
« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 12:41:48 pm by roy4matra » Logged

Martin Tyas
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Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2010, 11:24:28 am »

Thanks Roy.

Your input and advice are, as always, valued and appreciated.

If the braking effect, in addition to lower dust levels were better with EBC pads compared to standard (something that both you and Anders have since confirmed) then I had intended to change front and rear at the same time to maintain the front to rear brake balance. But I didn't want to fit Greenstuff to the front and Redstuff to the rear.
But I thought that it was a bit strange that only Red or Yellowstuff pads were available for the rear when I knew that that same caliper and pad combination were used on some Volkswagen Audi Group cars.... and not particularly hot models. So I did a bit more investigation in the meantime and I have since found two alternative EBC suppliers who have Greenstuff pads listed for the rear of the Grand.
So I can fit Greenstuff to both front and rear.

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
roy4matra
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« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2010, 03:08:58 pm »

Thanks Roy.

Your input and advice are, as always, valued and appreciated.

If the braking effect, in addition to lower dust levels were better with EBC pads compared to standard (something that both you and Anders have since confirmed) then I had intended to change front and rear at the same time to maintain the front to rear brake balance. But I didn't want to fit Greenstuff to the front and Redstuff to the rear.

You MUST not do this anyway.  You must not put higher rated ones to the rear, as I stated.

Quote
But I thought that it was a bit strange that only Red or Yellowstuff pads were available for the rear...

The reason they have some higher rated ones that fit is simply they are also used on the front of other cars...

Check out www.performancebrakes.co.uk whenever you need EBC pads.  You can select to search by model or pad number (if known).  The usefulness of this site is that a) if you search by model and it is listed, you will find the pad numbers, and yes there are greenstuff available for front and rear (DP21461 front and DP2680 rear) of your car; b) you can click on dimensions and see a graphic of the pads; c) if you search by part number (now you have them) it will list all the models that use that pad!

And for club members we have a code for automatic discount.

Roy
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jack daniels
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« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2010, 03:07:22 pm »

I have standard EBC disks both front and rear, and I did have standard ( probably red stuff ) EBC pads both front and rear. The front disks are about 285mm dia.

the front disks have lasted quite a while and dont accumulate much rust at all while the car sits unused. The pads seem to be allmost like new. Braking effect is not noticeably different to the original lucas disks and pads that were on there before. Brake dust might be just a shade better on the front with the EBC parts.

The rear now has biltema brand pads with EBC disks, these pads work best with my driving style anyway because with the previous Lucas, NK and EBC pads the rear disks rusted a lot more, which in turn caused premature pad death, and more noise.

The next rear disks and pads are going to be Pex brand from ATP autoparts because they were only about 60 euro.
By the way the EBC rear disks didn't fit the car with the 2 original retaining screws because the disks did not have the required countersunk holes.
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Espace, Grand (magnifique, formidable, grandiose, considérable, noble, ample) III  
2002   JE02   F4R  DP0   2.0L 16v auto
Martin Tyas
Sr. Member
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Posts: 278


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2010, 06:09:26 pm »


The rear now has biltema brand pads with EBC disks, these pads work best with my driving style anyway because with the previous Lucas, NK and EBC pads the rear disks rusted a lot more, which in turn caused premature pad death, and more noise.


Interestingly my rear discs do not need replacing due to wear because I fitted new ones at the same time as replacing the pads but I have ordered new EBC discs because the ones on the car currently  (Texstar ~ aftermarket) rusted very badly during last winter and have never recovered even after 8,000km of motoring since. I fitted some 18 inch alloys that are very open compared to the original wheels and so the brake discs are very visible and look such a mess.


By the way the EBC rear disks didn't fit the car with the 2 original retaining screws because the disks did not have the required countersunk holes.

Thanks for warning me but I will soon find out if they have corrected the problem because the new discs and front & rear Greenstuff pads should arrive tomorrow.

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Martin Tyas
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 278


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2010, 11:07:14 am »

The discs and pads arrived this morning. The discs are drilled and countersunk for the two retaining screws so all OK.

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
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