Espace Mk3 DCi JE0K G9T - wont start :(

[BrianM]

thanks Guys

I was planning on doing some work on her yesterday
but I suffer from fibromyalgia amongst other things and was in so much pain
bit better today, but think I will rest for a day or two otherwise it might flair up again

will let you know how it goes (or not as the case may be )

I may be able to help you with this check your admin area as I just pm'd you

[age9000]

Finally got everything back together

and.........wont start turns over ok, no sign of trying to catch though

am wondering if the timing is out as was not sure if pistons were at real TDC or not
though I did think I had worked it out, am sure I read somewhere that if this is the
case you can swop leads to 1 & 4 and 2 & 3 injectors, was getting dark so have not tried that yet

or am wondering if the intercooler is blocked with old fuel ? I guess if it was that would also stop it from starting
I guess if it is blocked and I disconnect the pipe from the intercooler then it should get some air again and should start ?

I forgot to take laptop with me so I could not get any readings from the clip

so will connect the clip up tomorrow and see what errors (if any) come up

Age

[GrahamT]

If you lined it all up putting the belt on, then it won't be far out      There is only one TDC. When the piston is at the TOP of it's stroke, Dead Centre.  The tool will lock the cams into the correct position.
Besides, it turns over ok, no valves hitting pistons. So it can't be so far out it won't fire.

I guess you've got compression? (clue - it isn't whizzing around like a spin dryer!)
It should at least make some attempt to fire, or backfire, at least so I think you are back to normal fault finding and you need to look at other things that will stop it running.

One thing you need is fuel so, as Roy suggested earlier, check the fuel pump.
Good luck!

(If there's any doubt about the intercooler then, yes, disconnecting it from the inlet will allow air in. However, it is very unlikely that it will be blocked completely and should be obvious if it is. There shouldn't be any fuel in it at all. The only thing it passes is air and maybe a bit of oil if the turbo seals are a bit leaky.)

[BrianM]

forget about TDC!!!  You need to remove the bolt in the front of the engine & insert a locating pin in. Turn the crank by hand until you locate it in the crank locking it in position. This is the correct position for timing with the locking tool.

[age9000]

timing was locked with pin and the two camshaft holders, so that should be spot on
was adjusted according to the PDF on the Matra site and same details were also with the belt kit

cant really do much until I get the Clip connected and see if that says anything
and can check fuel pressure etc

might be able to check tonight otherwise wont be until sunday

[BrianM]

Ok thats great, so it will be a goer. You may need to tow it around the block with your foot on the throttle just to clear out any remaining diesel that may be in it. Did you check the intercooler pipe below the egr. If its full of diesel then it would be a problem. last thing you want is a cylinder full of fuel!

[age9000]

cheers

sadly I think its now a scrapper

connected CLIP and good pressure in rail and engine speed when turned over
no errors apart from the ones its always had regarding thermo plungers Etc.

tried little bit of easy start. no difference

disconnected pipe from intercooler to EGR, no difference so connected back up


so thought I would swop 1-4 & 2-3 injector cables
did this and was a small sign of trying to start, little bit easy start and it tried to catch even more
eventually it started,

Great I thought, was running a bit rough as if on three cylinders and then it cleared and
ran ok but did not seem to have much power

I did fit a new fuel filter so rough idle might have been due to this

Then I saw the plume of white smoke appearing at the rear of the car. B*****ks !
thought I would take car outside to save filling the garage up
was hoping that it might clear, I know unlikely due to it being water in chamber
but maybe hoping there was some un-burnt fuel in exhaust (not sure if that's white or not)

when outside it stared quickly but seemed to lack any power
gave it a couple of quick burst on the accelerator and the crappy thing started to run away !
loads of white smoke , of course would not stop with the key so quickly stalled it against the garage wall

not tried starting again, probably not a good idea

oh well it was a good learning experience and I now know how much work is involved in doing
a job like this

replacement grand espace needed



RIP 2002 Espace 2.2 dci

[age9000]

hmm,

I always thought whitish smoke was due to water
but getting conflicting info on the web.
some places say its unburned fuel

if that's the case I am wondering if there is some fuel left in the intercooler
from when valve snapped sending fuel back into the inlet system
and its pulling some of this in when started and when I revved it its pulling more though
which is making it run by itself

in which case If I remove the intercooler and flush it out it might be able to be saved

If I remove the pipe from intercooler to EGR then it wont be able to pull anything through the intercooler
and I guess the smoke should stop if that is the cause of the trouble

how easy is it to get the front of the car off and remove the intercooler ?
anyone done this

or am I barking up the wrong tree ?

[GrahamT]

I'm not sure how the intercooler could get so much fuel in it, but it sounds feasible if that is the case.
On intercoolers I know about    there's a pipe going in to it from the turbo and a pipe coming out which goes to the inlet manifold.
Just remove the pipe from the inlet manifold and make sure nothing big can get sucked in (nuts, bolts, washers, etc.) Some fine mesh will do for a short test.
Don't give up yet!!  

[age9000]

cheers Graham

I'm still not sure if white smoke is water or fuel
so much conflicting info on the web

if fuel could do it then hopefully I just need to give the intercooler a good clean

when the valve snapped there was about a pint of diesel in the pipe and also some in part of the rocker cover
I guess some might also have got into the exhaust system as well

I might take the intercooler pipe off and see how much smoke there is then
I am thinking that if a fair bit of fuel went into the pipe then there could still be some in the cooler
as the pipes connect about half way up the cooler so it would not have emptied fully


If it is the turbo and its pulling oil through then I thought that would be black smoke
or is that not always the case

not done any work on diesels before now (apart from new glow plugs in an old 1989 Pug 205, so I think I have done well for a first attempt

[BrianM]

If its not knocking or has a serious misfire then it's not a scrapper yet! Yes sounds like you have to purge any excess diesel or oil in the inlet system. Try running it on easy start only, just short regular bursts. you should be able to run it with the hose from the turbo disconnected. That way the turbo will just empty the intercooler of any fluid without the need to take anything apart. If in doubt disconnect the vac hose from the solenoid to the turbo. Its on the bulkhead by the break master cylinder so it should'nt run away with itself.
Yer getting there!

[age9000]

popped up to the car quickly
and disconnected the pipe from intercooler to EGR
seemed a little bit wet, but not loads

I also disconnected the inlet pipe to the intercooler from the turbo (big metal pipe over top of engine)
that seemed all nice and dry, so looks like it is just fluid in the intercooler

however it wont start again
only managed to try for a few mins as the battery went flat

could not connect the clip as did not take laptop as did not think I would need it

battery now on charge and will try again tomorrow

hopefully its just an airlock stopping it from starting or something has gone wrong again
cant see that disconnecting the intercooler pipe and the vacuum pipes you said about Brian
would stop it starting, I connected the vacuum pipe back up and tried anyway and still would not start

yesterday It only revved high for no more than 10 secs which is probably less that what they do at an MOT
so hopefully it did not cause any damage

If I can get it to start I might take the intercooler out so I can give it a proper flush out to be on the safe side

[WessexElectricNutter]

Then I saw the plume of white smoke appearing at the rear of the car. B*****ks !
thought I would take car outside to save filling the garage up
was hoping that it might clear, I know unlikely due to it being water in chamber
but maybe hoping there was some un-burnt fuel in exhaust (not sure if that's white or not)

Just of a thought, did you take notice of the smell of the smoke coming out of the exhaust? I know from personal experience, unburnt diesel does have a particularly strong "burnt" like smell that doesn't burn properly. To describe it, smelt like something electrical is going. (Its freaked me out a few times when I've tried to start mine and the glow plugs have gone "screw you".).

oh well it was a good learning experience and I now know how much work is involved in doing
a job like this

replacement grand espace needed

RIP 2002 Espace 2.2 dci

Or get a working diesel engine from the scrapper/ebay. :-)


EDIT: I know a lot of people on here are more experienced than me and probably know this (being as I only know how diesel engine works and not a trained mechanic - or fitter), but sometimes, diagnosing a fault needs a lot of info and this chart is quite useful.
http://www.uniteddiesel.co.uk/diesel-engine-problems

See if any of the symptoms match yours. In other words, don't always rely on Clip, its useful like using an OBD reader to fix someone elses fault on a petrol Corsa and why it was misfiring, someone didn't plug an injector in properly!

[age9000]

went up to car earlier, did not get very far with anything

There was a power cut over night so the battery charger re-set and so did not fully charge the battery

however even worse is the Laptop has gone wrong now , ARRGGH !!
It took over an hr to get it running (of sorts), was very slow in loading the CLIP
and then said there was an error loading.

so am now sorting the laptop out and battery on charge again

hopefully better luck tomorrow

I did notice some oil around the EGR valve assembly that was not there before so
probably residue from when it sucked the oil/diesel mix from the intercooler
I might strip the EGR and assembly down again and check to see if its flooded

[age9000]

took the EGR out, little bit oil/diesel mixture

took intercooler out (a lot easier than I thought it would be )
very little if any fluid in it, will flush it out anyway

not tried starting again yet as thought it might be an idea to take the
rocker/inlet manifold off again in case there is any fluid in there
or does anyone think that turning the engine over will eventually get rid if there
is anything in there, would turn over with fuel disconnected so that no extra gets into the system
and hopefully will purge any fluid from the system

what do you guys think ?