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Author Topic: Fault reading on '97 JEA0 Espace with (apperently) no OBDII  (Read 7654 times)
MarkN
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The best cabrio is a motorbike


« on: December 10, 2006, 03:20:07 pm »

Hi,

I've spent many hours trying to find out how to read fault codes from the ECU of my '97 JEA0 2.0 8V Espace.
Somewhere I found that it should be OBD compatible, which was confirmed by the presence of an OBD connector and the right pins (K-line).
So i purchased a AGV2055 OBD-Diag Interface at www.obd-diag.de and tried to read codes.
All works fine with several different software programs, up to the point where the ECU should respond to the initial 101 command, which it doesn't (message 'Unable to connect').

Further investigation on the Internet learned that my car isn't OBD compatible after all, since it has an  F3R 728 engine instead of a F3R 768 (so I read....), even though both should have the same Siemens Fenix 5 ECU.
Now this Fenix 5 ECu is used in many other cars, also non-Renault, and (general) specificactions found on the Internet about it suggest it must be ISO 9141-II compatible.
Specs of my AGV2055 OBD-Diag Interface of www.obd-diag.de suggest that it supports this protocol.
Still, no data can be read with it from my car.

I then let the matter rest a bit, until my airbag system started to show 'service' on the display two weeks ago.
I've had this before and replaced the connectors of the belt tensioners with a soldered connection which helped.
This time I've checked the connectors on the tensoiners underneath the seats themselves and also the one on the steering wheel airbag.
Also I had a look at the airbag computer underneath the driver seat and gave it a bit of W40 contact spray and wiggled it a bit.
Doesn't help.

Either it's another connector somewhere else or a component is really defective (airbag computer, an airbag or a tensioner).
Finding out by trial and error is very time consuming and doesn't garrantuee succes.

I'd like to see if the ECU gives a fault code that indicates which component is defective (or badly connected).

So I picked up the idea of reading fault comes again...
Again i spend many ours on the Internet trying to find information.
However, without help I don't think i can get any further.
So I have these questions:

Is there any software I can use on my laptop that WILL work on my car?
If so, how to get it? (CLIP? which version? where to get it? what else needed? Special cable?)

What are the 'commands' to be sent to the ECU? I used to be a programmer many years and think I will be able to make a little program to do the job, If I can get hold of the necessary information.

Will any of this work with the OBD interface I have, or do I need another one?
If so, where can I get it, or: please supply me the schematics so I can build one.

If anybody helps me to get going with solving this problem, I will of course post any progress on this forum.


Many thanks.

Mark Nessen



 
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'97 Renault Espace, 2.0 8V JEA0 240.000 km
'67 Triumph Herald Sports, 8400 Km since restauration in '95
'57 BMW R26, 4500 km since restauration in '92
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2006, 09:26:32 pm »

Hi Mark

I have about the same experiences as you, and find that the Renault's cars are generally not kind to diagnostics equipment - even those that claim full compliance with the standard. The "official" explanation which I have heard is that there is an unfortunate bug in the software...

I am afraid that until someone finds time to hack some custom software together for our Espace's, then we are out of luck! I have never heard of an Espace that would work to an off-the-shelf OBD tester, except Renault's of course. So I guess your best choice is to visit your local Renault garage... I have the OBD standard from ASE in my basement, and I'm also a software engineer, so while I might have the inclination, I don't have any time - I've got too many kids and too much work! Grin

But since your car was from before the Espace got CAN bus, I'm not sure if that can help diagnose your airbag system, since it's only in the newer cars that these modules can communicate. Before Espace got CAN bus, I beleive the OBD connector could only talk to the engine management computer - nothing more, unfortunately. So I'm afraid you will have to look for the problem in the old fashioned way Sad

Cheers,
Anders Smiley
« Last Edit: December 10, 2006, 10:26:45 pm by Lennart Sorth » Logged

'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
MarkN
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The best cabrio is a motorbike


« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2006, 04:46:50 pm »

Hi Anders,

Thanks for your reply  Smiley, although it doesn't make me much happier  Cry.......

Nevertheless I will stay on the lookout for possibilities to at least be able to read the standard fault codes without having to go to the Renault dealer (here in Holland they ask about 30 Euro's only for reading the faultcodes for you...).

So if I find out more that might help us in this unfair struggle, I will post it here.

Bye,

Mark
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'97 Renault Espace, 2.0 8V JEA0 240.000 km
'67 Triumph Herald Sports, 8400 Km since restauration in '95
'57 BMW R26, 4500 km since restauration in '92
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2006, 07:46:02 pm »

Nevertheless I will stay on the lookout for possibilities to at least be able to read the standard fault codes without having to go to the Renault dealer (here in Holland they ask about 30 Euro's only for reading the faultcodes for you...).

Hmm, you are in Holland... Is it the Rotterdam area accidentially?
I have a friend in Oud Beijerland who is working with engine diagnostics and he *may* be able to help you...

Please contact me directly if you think this may be useful to you Smiley
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
roy4matra
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« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2006, 07:30:36 pm »

Hi,

I've spent many hours trying to find out how to read fault codes from the ECU of my '97 JEA0 2.0 8V Espace.  Somewhere I found that it should be OBD compatible, which was confirmed by the presence of an OBD connector and the right pins (K-line).  So i purchased a AGV2055 OBD-Diag Interface at www.obd-diag.de and tried to read codes.  All works fine with several different software programs, up to the point where the ECU should respond to the initial 101 command, which it doesn't (message 'Unable to connect').

Further investigation on the Internet learned that my car isn't OBD compatible after all ...

So I have these questions:

Is there any software I can use on my laptop that WILL work on my car?
If so, how to get it? (CLIP? which version? where to get it? what else needed? Special cable?)

Many thanks.

Mark

When it comes to OBD or EOBD and Renault - forget it!  European law states that all 2001 vehicle onwards should have the same connector and EOBD, but Renault (or dare I say: the French) just seem to ignore all these rulings and do what they want.  I worked at Renault for five years and complained that their EOBD system didn't comply or work and was told to forget it as they knew it didn't work!

When we had a new trainer at the training centre, who was much better qualified than me on these EOBD systems and regulations, he confirmed this was the case.  How they can ignore these regs. amazes me.  If anyone else doesn't conform they soon shout, but the French...

As for Clip and getting yuour own software or cables - forget that too.  Even when I was an RTE at Renault I couldn't buy my own, even just for work use.  In fact if the dealer had any equipment stolen, even they couldn't simply get a replacement.  You had to have all claim forms and police reports etc. before anything could be obtained.  And the training centre found it just as bad.  Talk about keeping things 'close to your chest'!

The early software could be loaded on to any Win98 laptop, but you still needed their interface (unobtainable) to connect to any of the vehicles.  By 2005 the software (now WinXP) would only work on their own laptops (at least without a better hacker than me) so on top of the fact that it didn't work without their interface, there really is no point.

Regarding airbag systems, the resistances of the units (airbags, pre-tensioners, etc.) are around 3 ohms but vary from say 2.4 on some types to 3.6 on others.  They only have a small tolerance range, and if through poor connection they stray outside their limit, the system is triggered.  With these sort of resistances and the poor types of connectors used, it is quite easy for the value to go outside it's min. or max. and we used to cut off the original connectors and use some decent ones!  This always cured the problem.  You could also solder the connections together but that just made it more of a nuisance when you needed to remove something for whatever reason.

If soldering or decent connectors doesn't solve the problem, then the fault is usually in the computer, and if you have a computer that doesn't allow connection of the diagnostics computer, it always meant replacement - even though it may have worked some of the time.  The point is that you can never tell if a faulty computer will work when required, so your airbag system was worthless.

Roy
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MarkN
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The best cabrio is a motorbike


« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2007, 03:33:02 pm »

Hi Roy,

Thanks for your answer  Smiley, although it's not very promising...  Sad.

Could you perhaps tell me where the other connections are that might be poor, so I can check them, before going to a dealer and have the computer itself tested?
I've already done the connectors on the tensioners below the seats.


Mark

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'97 Renault Espace, 2.0 8V JEA0 240.000 km
'67 Triumph Herald Sports, 8400 Km since restauration in '95
'57 BMW R26, 4500 km since restauration in '92
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