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Author Topic: Another LM0 gearbox question.  (Read 2314 times)
WessexElectricNutter
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« on: June 02, 2018, 08:15:19 pm »

A problem that started today since I've started using my V6 Espace and (now) I have some sort of version of Clip, I interrogated the gearbox ECU and got this:


Just for compleness, I've included the parameters. I'm sure the gearbox oil temperature is very high.




The car drove fine up until 200 miles in with about 1 hours rest so was warm, I've been told the Espace seems to run hotter than any other V6 Espace. Anyway, problem I had, started "slipping" going from 3rd to 4th, then a bit further, it started slipping slightly from 2nd to 3rd, downshift seems to be fine. Car accelerates fine, just a weird ticking noise coming from the torque converter when cold and hot. Gearbox oil changed about 3 or 4 years ago, I've only done less than 1000 miles since owning the car (For this reason). Oh and the outside temperature is around 22-25C. Any suggestions of the next course of action? Am I right that the gearbox is reaching the stage of requiring refurbishment? The car has just done 124,000 miles.
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Renault Clio Mk1 1.4 (Automatic) (1996)
Renault Clio Mk1 1.4 (manual) was 1.2 (1997) - under repair
Renault Espace III 2.2 DCi Privilege (2001) - NIRU
Renault Espace III 3.0 V6 Privilege (2001) - NIRU
Vauxhall Omega 2.5L V6 Elite (1998) - under repair
Ford Ka 1.3 (2005) - Wife to be's car
BrianM
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« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2018, 07:12:26 pm »

How did you get on with this, reminded me of my v6 box problems. Have a look : http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php/topic,2451.0.html
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2018, 09:22:10 pm »

Before you do anything, check the connector at the top of the gearbox. It could be full of water!
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
BrianM
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« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2018, 08:21:55 am »

You have low voltage to the gearbox. Do as Anders said, check the electrical connector. I  think it just screws out/in. Listen for constant noise of blocked oil filter which causes gear change problems. Again, have a look at my old gbox post. Looking at my old post you will see corrosion in the gbox ecu socket. think it is in front of battery.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 12:58:54 am by BrianM » Logged
WessexElectricNutter
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« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2019, 02:45:27 pm »

Thank you everyone for the replies. I've been slow in getting back, the car sat on the drive for over a year and I decided not to risk it. It got booked into a garage and I saved up for the cash to do it. I'm looking at preserving the car in its original form which is going to be fun which was the decision since I brought it off eBay. It was due for a cambelt change anyway, so I thought "do both together" as the cambelt has done less than 4,000 miles but 5 years.

Re: connector, had a look at that, seems to be clean. No sign of any corrosion I could see, but the connector was looking damp. So, I wonder if the solenoids have failed, due to the lack of use, I was thinking corrsion, but seems like the latter.
Re: gearbox I think the oil filter is plugged. It was making a quiet gagging noise to start with until warm, then did it when it was hot. If I am looking at the right oil which was changed 1,500 miles max before all this started, it looks black now in the bucket, but was a deep orange on my fingers. I thought it was suppose to be red?

It may of been overheating too. I did think 93C was high, but I think I found out why, there was a lot of antifreeze around the intercooler pipe and I was loosing coolant! I'll let everyone be the judge of that. There is a concern about parts availability, the garage think they can use a Mercedes Vito box(!) if some parts are compatible. Apparently, there are 4 versions available - something I didn't know. Being a post 2000 vehicle and no "Sport" switch, I would love to own a "d****" Espace as the gearstick seems to be much easier to reach, then I think that rules out 2 versions.

I wonder if someone has the d**** stick somewhere? I've heard they are a bit dangerous to use as they are dead easy to leave in gear, but then again, so is my recently acquired automatic Mk1 Clio, except it doesn't start if you leave it in gear and doesn't require you to press the brake to change the gear selector from Park or Neutral (Come to think of it, you don't even need to move the button unless you are coming out of Park or Drive I think). My Omega and Espace does.
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Renault Clio Mk1 1.4 (Automatic) (1996)
Renault Clio Mk1 1.4 (manual) was 1.2 (1997) - under repair
Renault Espace III 2.2 DCi Privilege (2001) - NIRU
Renault Espace III 3.0 V6 Privilege (2001) - NIRU
Vauxhall Omega 2.5L V6 Elite (1998) - under repair
Ford Ka 1.3 (2005) - Wife to be's car
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2019, 12:08:01 pm »

Re: gearbox I think the oil filter is plugged. It was making a quiet gagging noise to start with until warm, then did it when it was hot. If I am looking at the right oil which was changed 1,500 miles max before all this started, it looks black now in the bucket, but was a deep orange on my fingers. I thought it was suppose to be red?

Ok, it's dead then. My guess is that at least one of the clutches inside has failed completely and there's now metal everywhere inside. I'd start looking for a replacement or a complete restoration. I had mine replaced with a refurbished one from Renault, others have had good experiences contacting the aftermarket services of the manufacturer ZF in Germany: https://aftermarket.zf.com/go/en/aftermarket-portal/

Good luck! You'll have a lovely car to drive when it works again Smiley
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
WessexElectricNutter
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« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2019, 05:24:39 pm »

Ok, it's dead then. My guess is that at least one of the clutches inside has failed completely and there's now metal everywhere inside. I'd start looking for a replacement or a complete restoration. I had mine replaced with a refurbished one from Renault, others have had good experiences contacting the aftermarket services of the manufacturer ZF in Germany: https://aftermarket.zf.com/go/en/aftermarket-portal/

Good luck! You'll have a lovely car to drive when it works again Smiley

Not quite, it still drives, just a bit lumpy in 2/3 and that awful noise. I did treat it gently before giving it over to the garage, so hopefully that is the damage limited. The company that it is going to says its a good start it drives, I may of caught it in time before everything let go. Then everyone asks "why aren't you driving it?" Now they know. Originally, the box was meant to go down the road from where my other half lives, Express Gearboxes but the garage I took it to wasn't happy as they quoted £900 and then jacked it up over double the original quote after they found out what it was. (What were they expecting? A DP0 box?) So they looked at a Company in Kent, so hopefully, tomorrow (02/12/2019 as I write this) will crack it open and tell me if there is anything wrong. I did find a used box on eBay which wasn't horrific, but mine has done 123k now and this box might have similar issues. Either way, I tried turning the TC and couldn't, unless that is actually how it is suppose to be, you don't turn the TC by hand. I should upload some photos really, but I don't call my "Nokia 1 TA-1066" smartphone camera as good quality. Its better than loosing an iPhone 7 plus down the cess of a railway line while locking out a train which is what nearly happened last time - that was scary!

And don't remind me, it was a fantastic car until the gearbox started giving up on the A34 near Newbury. It started about 80 miles approx from home when it decided to change down going up hill and refused to engage properly, sending the poor old V6 to its limits. The temperature was about 25C to 27C, so during our long hot summer in 2018. It only did about 6 miles since. Took it to Winstable, it was lovely and confortable. Took it to Birmingham with a motorbike in the back, took it to work and despite having a reputation of beign juicy, I was returning 25mpg with my style of driving if the MPG lie detector works.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 05:30:33 pm by WessexElectricNutter » Logged

Renault Clio Mk1 1.4 (Automatic) (1996)
Renault Clio Mk1 1.4 (manual) was 1.2 (1997) - under repair
Renault Espace III 2.2 DCi Privilege (2001) - NIRU
Renault Espace III 3.0 V6 Privilege (2001) - NIRU
Vauxhall Omega 2.5L V6 Elite (1998) - under repair
Ford Ka 1.3 (2005) - Wife to be's car
WessexElectricNutter
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« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2019, 05:47:22 pm »

With that, is some photos of the gearbox. They have been resized to 1024x768 and you will now see why I said the Nokia 1 is not good at photography, well low light anyway and the lens gets dirty easily.









A few things that sent red flags, that oil cooler, I'm sure its on the verge of failure, one of the bolt holes looks like coolant is leaking through it (or am I wrong?), one of the pipe connections also looks like its been leaking.
As for the connector, I couldn't take an absolutely full view as the car was too high in the air for that. But I did what I could.
I also checked on the subframe as my diesel one cracked and thankfully, this one has no issues to report, they were however, very reluctant to take it off as they remember what my diesel one was like.
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Renault Clio Mk1 1.4 (Automatic) (1996)
Renault Clio Mk1 1.4 (manual) was 1.2 (1997) - under repair
Renault Espace III 2.2 DCi Privilege (2001) - NIRU
Renault Espace III 3.0 V6 Privilege (2001) - NIRU
Vauxhall Omega 2.5L V6 Elite (1998) - under repair
Ford Ka 1.3 (2005) - Wife to be's car
WessexElectricNutter
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« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2019, 01:45:22 pm »

Finally had an update!


The gearbox - if you hear any funny noises - STOP. Don't drive it. I discovered I saved my box from total destruction that way. In between the nasty noises which got worse, the box went from bad to worse.

The assessment was that the plates need replacing, the bushes need replacing and I had a stuck valve which I am guessing is the valve for 2 > 3/3 > 2 control (or 3 > 4/ 4 > 3 control). So good news, the torque converter wasn't mentioned. Even better, nothing is broken.

However, now I got problem no.2. I now need 2 power steering pipes, I can get the pipes made, that bit isn't a problem. However, what is, is the connectors. No one is able to find any. Does anyone have any ideas?

EDIT:
After measuring my spare power steering rack, I know 2 things, I need male unions/studs, 18mm thread, but not sure what the inner diameter or pitch is, however, there seems to be 5 turns. Short of making them (that will be interesting as I don't have access to a lathe), I'm looking at every possible avenue. What I really need as I don't have the pipes nor does the garage, is someone to measure the union at their end. I don't want to take the diesel Espace apart either.

« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 02:11:15 pm by WessexElectricNutter » Logged

Renault Clio Mk1 1.4 (Automatic) (1996)
Renault Clio Mk1 1.4 (manual) was 1.2 (1997) - under repair
Renault Espace III 2.2 DCi Privilege (2001) - NIRU
Renault Espace III 3.0 V6 Privilege (2001) - NIRU
Vauxhall Omega 2.5L V6 Elite (1998) - under repair
Ford Ka 1.3 (2005) - Wife to be's car
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2019, 06:17:16 am »

Happy to hear nothing is broken. That's really good news, congrats Smiley

I fully support your point, by the way... funny noises from the gearbox indicate trouble. Act before it's too late. I didn't, and although I can't say if some of it could have been saved, I ended up needing a whole new gearbox (not a new torque converter though).

Best,
Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
WessexElectricNutter
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« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2019, 01:08:52 pm »

Happy to hear nothing is broken. That's really good news, congrats Smiley

I fully support your point, by the way... funny noises from the gearbox indicate trouble. Act before it's too late. I didn't, and although I can't say if some of it could have been saved, I ended up needing a whole new gearbox (not a new torque converter though).

Best,
Anders

Oh yes and heard more, the filter was clogged as well, apparently there was also a lot of swarf on the magnets as well. But I was still able to drive the car. Basically, it was gagging for oil, so the bearings were on the way to failure . I think I must be the most luckiest Espace V6 driver going, that I knew what was happening before it was too late. And the car STILL drove. Doing my research has really helped as those that have had a failed box I've been able to look for the signs of death.

Either way, the box isn't coming back for another 2 weeks and it looks like the power steering pipes are the next problem. I think I have a workaround though and it is a work around I do NOT recommend. The reason being is simple, I don't know if the item will sustain the pressure.
That is, if I cannot find the appropriate union, looks like I may have to find a bolt and drill a hole through the centre. It sounds easy, but its not. For a start, you need a lathe (I don't have one) and your material needs to withstand high pressures. This basically means I'm going into the unknown and out of it, I could get a burst pipe or worse.
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Renault Clio Mk1 1.4 (Automatic) (1996)
Renault Clio Mk1 1.4 (manual) was 1.2 (1997) - under repair
Renault Espace III 2.2 DCi Privilege (2001) - NIRU
Renault Espace III 3.0 V6 Privilege (2001) - NIRU
Vauxhall Omega 2.5L V6 Elite (1998) - under repair
Ford Ka 1.3 (2005) - Wife to be's car
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2019, 09:05:14 pm »

Sounds like the box more or less saved itself.

I'm not sure I understand your hydraulics problem, thourhg. Or rather, I think understand as much that what you're thinking about about drilling is not a good idea - not recommendable, as you say. I suggest you find a hydraulics expert somewhere who can renovate the old pipes... if that's possible?

/Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
WessexElectricNutter
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« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2020, 02:06:10 pm »

Sounds like the box more or less saved itself.

I'm not sure I understand your hydraulics problem, thourhg. Or rather, I think understand as much that what you're thinking about about drilling is not a good idea - not recommendable, as you say. I suggest you find a hydraulics expert somewhere who can renovate the old pipes... if that's possible?

/Anders

Just the unions. I've taken some time to reply as I've been ill and I've been looking for these. Looks like they are just a hollow bolt. Thread is 18mm and pitch is 1.5mm. Fits a 17mm spanner though (What!?). Not sure of the pipe diameter, possibly 10-15mm. I'd go for 12, but don't hold me to hostage over it!

I found a power steering pump on fleabay for a cheap price but the pipe was also rusted to the union! It gets better and better. So, asked my dad, used WD40 that did nothing (typical!), twisted and bent the pipe worse than it was, then got a propane heat gun on it, got it glowing in places and twisted. Then came this massive cloud of rust from between the union and pipe. Here is the result.


Now to find how many I need as if this one was recoverable and the pipe was really rusty, then the others should be easy.

These days, I don't feel like a train cleaner (only by job title), but more like an engineer, certaintly getting that way. I got a few more bits to deal with, before I consider myself worthy of that title, one of which is my rear glass hinges on the diesel espace which I think I need to 3D print.

Edit: looked through the bore, no wonder why they are difficult to find, they are just simply a bolt with a hole drilled in the middle. They are nothing special. Note to self.
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Renault Clio Mk1 1.4 (Automatic) (1996)
Renault Clio Mk1 1.4 (manual) was 1.2 (1997) - under repair
Renault Espace III 2.2 DCi Privilege (2001) - NIRU
Renault Espace III 3.0 V6 Privilege (2001) - NIRU
Vauxhall Omega 2.5L V6 Elite (1998) - under repair
Ford Ka 1.3 (2005) - Wife to be's car
WessexElectricNutter
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« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2020, 03:44:08 pm »

... then spoke to Pirtek. Aparently, they don't have the facilities to do anything with the pipe but braze on new bits! Oh well, more phoning around and found a specialist I think.











Here is the condition of the pipes. In 5 years, this car has done less than 3,000 miles which shows you how precious I am over it.
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Renault Clio Mk1 1.4 (Automatic) (1996)
Renault Clio Mk1 1.4 (manual) was 1.2 (1997) - under repair
Renault Espace III 2.2 DCi Privilege (2001) - NIRU
Renault Espace III 3.0 V6 Privilege (2001) - NIRU
Vauxhall Omega 2.5L V6 Elite (1998) - under repair
Ford Ka 1.3 (2005) - Wife to be's car
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