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Author Topic: Getting ready for the road again  (Read 93967 times)
Murenanimal
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« Reply #270 on: April 22, 2022, 10:11:48 am »

I can follow the arguments Roy, will see into it in depth with my garage upon my next maintainence.
For whom it may concern, herewith a couple of images of the electrical water pump installation.
By the way the the electric waterpump was Ä72,00 a termocontact Ä28 and 1 hour job Ä50 totalling Ä100 plus 21% VAT or Ä121 all in.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2023, 10:47:01 pm by Anders Dinsen » Logged
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« Reply #271 on: April 22, 2022, 11:28:00 pm »

The diagram below shows the circuit which I am implementing. As you can see, the booster pump is sitting drawing water from the pipe on the front of the engine, into the engine through the water pump housing, and out through the thermostat housing (both of these will be only the housings). It looks like your pump has been fitted on the water feed from the exansion tank. I find that a little odd as it will mean that it will be continously pumping water out of that and this water will be coming from two sources: The vents on top of the radiator and the vent on the thermostat housing. This, I believe, is suboptimal as these vents are both small and hot. Thus I would expect that the cooling effect will be marginal or at least very limited.
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1982 Talbot Matra Murena 2.2 prep 142
2017 BMW i3 "Charged Professional" 94Ah

Used to own:
2001 Renault Matra Grand Espace "The Race" V6 24v
1997 Renault Matra Espace 2.0 8V
1987 Renault Matra Espace J11 2.2
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« Reply #272 on: May 08, 2022, 10:15:55 pm »

I've been chatting on Messenger with Youri and realized that it would be possible to exchange the mounting flange on my new Espace-alternator with the original from my Murena. He did that with a CitroŽn Visa alternator (correct me if I got it wrong, Youri).

The mounting holes are differently located on the Espace-alternator but apart from that and the rating (Original: 55A, new 70A) the alternators are identical. So I took the new one apart, removing the bearing, refitting the bearing in the old flange and fitting the flange with the new bearing on the new alternator coil and rotor shaft. I now have a new alternator with the correct Murena specific mounting flange. I promise to post some pictures soon. Edit: Pictures added. Model is AS-PL 3007 https://as-pl.com/en/p/A3007

Also, the machine shop called me last week asking some details about the flywheel weight reduction and balancing, so I hope I'll get that back soon.

I'm rather busy with work and other stuff at the moment but I must get the engine lifted off the dolly removing the sump so that I can exchange the gasket. I searched the manual, but I'm unsure if the new cork gasket (with the proper aluminium inserts) should be lubricated when fitted, or if it is best fitted dry?

/Anders
« Last Edit: May 13, 2022, 12:29:54 pm by Anders Dinsen » Logged

1982 Talbot Matra Murena 2.2 prep 142
2017 BMW i3 "Charged Professional" 94Ah

Used to own:
2001 Renault Matra Grand Espace "The Race" V6 24v
1997 Renault Matra Espace 2.0 8V
1987 Renault Matra Espace J11 2.2
Matraman
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« Reply #273 on: May 11, 2022, 12:11:02 pm »

Hi Anders
I had to remove my sump twice because the thread of the sump plug stripped after refitting the sump during the rebuild (it turned out someone had previously fitted an oversized plug with the wrong thread!). The Chrysler 160 / 180 manual I used said the sump gasket needed oiling before fitting, so I did that first time, however I was getting a small amount of seepage from it  (as well as the sump plug) when I filled it with oil.

I noticed when stripping down the engine initially that there was liquid gasket around the sump gasket, in fact a few bits had squeezed out and ended up on the sump oil pickup. So the second time I refitted the sump, having tapped a new 22 mm hole for a new sump plug, I dry fitted the gasket with a smear of liquid gasket both sides. This seems to be 99% okay, but I do get the odd drip, but it's much less than when I fitted it using just oil on the gasket.

Hopefully that helps a bit.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2022, 12:13:03 pm by Matraman » Logged

Andrew
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #274 on: June 06, 2022, 09:32:45 am »

I have no progress on the sump to report but wanted to share a few pictures...
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1982 Talbot Matra Murena 2.2 prep 142
2017 BMW i3 "Charged Professional" 94Ah

Used to own:
2001 Renault Matra Grand Espace "The Race" V6 24v
1997 Renault Matra Espace 2.0 8V
1987 Renault Matra Espace J11 2.2
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #275 on: July 07, 2023, 11:08:40 pm »

For various reasons my work stalled on the car, but I managed to start progress again recently so here are some pictures. I'm currently working on the engine water pipes to ensure they fit correctly with my electrical water pump installation (I'm struggling fitting the booster pump). I expect to refit the engine in the car sometime next week or the week after depending on the amount of family activities preventing me from working. Vacation time = working time (on the car)  Grin
« Last Edit: July 07, 2023, 11:14:02 pm by Anders Dinsen » Logged

1982 Talbot Matra Murena 2.2 prep 142
2017 BMW i3 "Charged Professional" 94Ah

Used to own:
2001 Renault Matra Grand Espace "The Race" V6 24v
1997 Renault Matra Espace 2.0 8V
1987 Renault Matra Espace J11 2.2
roy4matra
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« Reply #276 on: July 08, 2023, 08:01:36 am »

I've been chatting on Messenger with Youri and realized that it would be possible to exchange the mounting flange on my new Espace-alternator with the original from my Murena. He did that with a CitroŽn Visa alternator (correct me if I got it wrong, Youri).

The mounting holes are differently located on the Espace-alternator but apart from that and the rating (Original: 55A, new 70A) the alternators are identical. So I took the new one apart, removing the bearing, refitting the bearing in the old flange and fitting the flange with the new bearing on the new alternator coil and rotor shaft. I now have a new alternator with the correct Murena specific mounting flange. I promise to post some pictures soon. Edit: Pictures added. Model is AS-PL 3007 https://as-pl.com/en/p/A3007

Hello Anders,

I originally wondered why you needed to measure for a new alternator belt, as I thought it should be the same as the original, but now I think about it, of course you do not have the water pump pulley any longer.  However, the pulley on this new alternator looks smaller than the original?  Is that correct?  If it is, please be aware that this will cause the alternator to rotate at a higher speed, with subsequent higher wear on bearings, brushes etc.


Quote
I'm rather busy with work and other stuff at the moment but I must get the engine lifted off the dolly removing the sump so that I can exchange the gasket. I searched the manual, but I'm unsure if the new cork gasket (with the proper aluminium inserts) should be lubricated when fitted, or if it is best fitted dry?

/Anders

Cork sump gaskets were fitted on many old cars (and I mean pre-war or fifties cars) when the oil used was not the same as we use today, thicker mono or multi-grades compared to the synthetics we now use.  The sumps were mostly unstressed tin plate just hung under the block with the oil level well below the gasket line; the engines had low pressure oil systems, and the cars were not so fast nor the road holding so good, to create lengthy oil surge on corners.  This gave the cork sump gaskets a much easier time.

The correct procedure for fitting a cork gasket was to soak it in water which made it swell, then fit it and tighten the bolts which squeezed the swollen gasket against the faces and made it seal.

Using oil on a cork gasket is really no good at all.  It won't soak in or make it swell, and it won't form a good seal with either surface, or prevent oil soaking into the cork.

Now the engines also never produced the heat they do today, so although the gasket would slowly dry out it would usually not break the seal and what little oil was thrown against the gasket was too thick to seep through the cork gasket, so there was little leakage.  Plus old cars were almosted expected to leak a little anyway, and the roads were often dirt, and drives were gravel so they absorbed the small leakage without too much problem.

Now consider a modern car, with a much higher oil pressure, and a synthetic oil which does not have the wax content which made old oils thicker, plus higher running temperatures, and you have a different situation where cork really is now an unsuitable oil sump gasket.  Especially in a car like the Murena where you can generate quite some oil surge on cornering!

Add in that the Murena engine and sump have to be rigid together because the power unit is mounted on the sump and gearbox, NOT the block, as with this Simca Type 180 engine in it's originally designed installation in the Chrysler 160/160GT/180, and you can see that the Murena needs a different solution.  If you use an original Murena cork gasket with metal inserts then it needs a small bead of silicon gasket sealer around the edge on both sides of the gasket or any other good gasket sealing compound such as Hylomar etc.  Even then there will be some small leakage where the oil soaks into the gasket and eventually seeps out on the outside!  I have tried a silicon sealer, and Hylomar on different engine builds to see which might be better, but both eventually suffer from a small seepage through the cork, particularly since I always use a fully synthetic oil which is the best oil but will slowly soak into and through the cork.

You stated that you searched the manual for anything about how to fit and seal the sump gasket, but think about it - you won't find anything in any Murena manual!  Why?  Because they never produced a full 2.2 engine section in the Murena workshop manual.  All that was ever provided were some orange supplemental pages about a few things that were different to the engine when fitted in the Tagora (or Chrysler 2-litre/180/160) and since those all had an unstressed tin plate sump hung below a block that was mounted conventionally, it means their gaskets were never subjected to the movement and vibrations that in a Murena will break the seal if the engine is not kept totally solid with the sump.

That is why the spacers were inserted into the cork gasket in the first place - so the bolts could be done up tight and would hold the sump solidly with the engine block without destroying the cork gasket, and prevent movement between the two which will destroy a Tagora gasket in no time.  The Tagora 2.2 engine manual has nothing about sump gaskets obviously because their engine mounting and sump are totally conventional and don't need anything special.  Anything in a Chrysler 160/180/2-litre manual about fitting sump gaskets will similarly be useless for a Murena 2.2 sump gasket.

Maybe now you see why my solution with no gasket and simply silicon sealant is, I believe, the way to go.

Roy
« Last Edit: July 10, 2023, 01:10:59 am by roy4matra » Logged

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« Reply #277 on: July 09, 2023, 10:33:20 pm »

I originally wondered why you needed to measure for a new alternator belt, as I thought it should be the same as the original, but now I think about it, of course you do not have the water pump pulley any longer.  However, the pulley on this new alternator looks smaller than the original?  Is that correct?  If it is, please be aware that this will cause the alternator to rotate at a higher speed, with subsequent higher wear on bearings, brushes etc.

The pulley on the new alternator does indeed look small, but is exactly the same size as the original - as can be seen on the attached photo. The lenght of the new alternator belt seems quite critical because the adjustment tilts the alternator both outwards and downwards. With the original installation where the belt goes via the alternator pulley, the geometry means this tensions the belt well, but with my installation, the tensioning is effectively reduced due to the different geometry. I've tried to illustrate it in the other attached picture. I'm still hoping I can fit a belt that will do the job without changinge the mounting points of the alternator.

Thanks for your lengthy and detailed description of cork gaskets which I'm sure will help a lot of people. I still think Matra should have written a page discussing the sump gasket in the organge supplement for the 2.2.

As we discussed over e-mail a while back, I have decided to try your solution and fit the sump without a the cork gasket or the aluminum spacer which people in Germany are using, only with one layer of silicon sealant. I will do the job once the engine is in the car and I can more easily and safely suspend it from above with the RH engine mount released. In my workshop, the engine was unfortuately sitting on its dolly and not on an engine stand where I could rotate it.

The weather has been too hot for working today, but I have been doing some galvanic derusting of the gearbox linkage parts. I'm rather satisfied with today's result - the third picture shows the zinc paint I used a while back on the top linkage creating ugly bubbles on the surface of the electrolytic water, the fourth the linkage parts as they looked when taken right out of the water, and the last one showing the end result after wire brushing.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2023, 10:35:35 pm by Anders Dinsen » Logged

1982 Talbot Matra Murena 2.2 prep 142
2017 BMW i3 "Charged Professional" 94Ah

Used to own:
2001 Renault Matra Grand Espace "The Race" V6 24v
1997 Renault Matra Espace 2.0 8V
1987 Renault Matra Espace J11 2.2
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #278 on: July 10, 2023, 08:54:12 pm »

Apologizing for the mess on my workshop table, I just wanted to show how good the selector components look - apart for the bracket which I just removed and haven't treated in my electrolytic bucket yet. I'm posting to ask about the two plastic bushes, which are worn, can be saved, and are quite expensive from Simon. Has anyone tried something else, e.g. bronze bushes?
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1982 Talbot Matra Murena 2.2 prep 142
2017 BMW i3 "Charged Professional" 94Ah

Used to own:
2001 Renault Matra Grand Espace "The Race" V6 24v
1997 Renault Matra Espace 2.0 8V
1987 Renault Matra Espace J11 2.2
matramurena
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« Reply #279 on: July 10, 2023, 09:12:14 pm »


As we discussed over e-mail a while back, I have decided to try your solution and fit the sump without a the cork gasket or the aluminum spacer which people in Germany are using, only with one layer of silicon sealant. I will do the job once the engine is in the car and I can more easily and safely suspend it from above with the RH engine mount released. In my workshop, the engine was unfortuately sitting on its dolly and not on an engine stand where I could rotate it.


Hi! I know it is expansive as f,.,, but Volvo Penta has a specially designed silicon based hi-temp sealant for sumps that works very very good. (it is a real pain in the back to remove the sump again afterwards) Volvo Penta high temperature gasket sealant, Part Number 22618327.

Everything looks very good with you project! I like the idea of a electrically operated coolant pump as well having not the most reliable pump on my engine.  Smiley
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1983 Matra Murena V6 (AR engine)
2003 Matra Avantime 2.0T Expression
2003 Matra Avantime V6 Privilege
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« Reply #280 on: July 10, 2023, 11:00:16 pm »

Hi! I know it is expansive as f,.,, but Volvo Penta has a specially designed silicon based hi-temp sealant for sumps that works very very good. (it is a real pain in the back to remove the sump again afterwards) Volvo Penta high temperature gasket sealant, Part Number 22618327.

Everything looks very good with you project! I like the idea of a electrically operated coolant pump as well having not the most reliable pump on my engine.  Smiley

Thanks, it'll be interesting to actually run with the EWP. One thing I'm looking forward to is being able to bleed the system without running the engine. Looking back at what I've had to do I'm actually unsure whether it was a sensible project. Not because it will not work, I'm sure it will, but there's much more work in it than I expected with small details like drive belt fitting and booster pump taking much more time to solve than expected. Also, changing an existing system always introduces risks of something new going wrong, and even though the mechanical pumps do have a bad reputation, I think we know the issues and how to prevent them.

About the Penta gasket sealant, thanks for the recomendation. I expect to use a similar product I used for the other parts, red high temperature sealant. I have a new can on my workshop table. People have had luck fitting the aluminum spacer available from Germany with that.

I'm finding myself falling into a few "rabbit holes" these days. Derusting the gearbox linkage components wasn't something I planned... But now that I'm at it, I'm also going to derust the heat shield above the exhaust manifold also - and paint it, of course. I'm sure I will not regret doing that, though! Cheesy
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1982 Talbot Matra Murena 2.2 prep 142
2017 BMW i3 "Charged Professional" 94Ah

Used to own:
2001 Renault Matra Grand Espace "The Race" V6 24v
1997 Renault Matra Espace 2.0 8V
1987 Renault Matra Espace J11 2.2
roy4matra
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« Reply #281 on: July 14, 2023, 09:06:05 pm »

Apologizing for the mess on my workshop table, I just wanted to show how good the selector components look - apart for the bracket which I just removed and haven't treated in my electrolytic bucket yet. I'm posting to ask about the two plastic bushes, which are worn, can be saved, and are quite expensive from Simon. Has anyone tried something else, e.g. bronze bushes?

The bushes from Simon are bronze bushes, Anders, which is one reason they seem more expensive than maybe you were expecting.  The cylindrical part is very thin so care has to be made in producing them.  The plastic bushes may get dirty and very tight, in fact the lever is often almost seized, but there is so little room for grease that even greased bronze bushes may get tight after some time if they are not cleaned and re-greased.  Since the plastic bushes have a spiral split in them, there could be more room for a little retained grease.

Roy
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« Reply #282 on: July 14, 2023, 10:08:51 pm »

The bushes from Simon are bronze bushes, Anders, which is one reason they seem more expensive than maybe you were expecting.  The cylindrical part is very thin so care has to be made in producing them.  The plastic bushes may get dirty and very tight, in fact the lever is often almost seized, but there is so little room for grease that even greased bronze bushes may get tight after some time if they are not cleaned and re-greased.  Since the plastic bushes have a spiral split in them, there could be more room for a little retained grease.

That's interesting. Yes, the walls of cylindrical part are only 1 mm thick whereas standard bronze bushes I've been able to find in catalogues are 2 mm or more, so I do appreciate the delicacy and price then. I managed to refit the lever with the old plastic bushes with plenty of silicone grease. There is no play and it turns like a knife in a block of butter. As my plastic bushes are quite worn, I will consider buying a set of Simons bushes to ensure I have them when my plastic ones wear out eventually.

I managed to remove the top bush on the selector rod today. It took some minutes of heating with a torch and some beating with a sledge hammer as the old one was siezed (as I understand they do), but it finally gave in. I bought the new bush in 2008 so I'm joking today that I finally finished a 15 years job  Roll Eyes

I'm now ready to once again raise the car a little so I can move the engine back in the engine room and do the final preparations before lowering the car on it again and refitting it. I hope I've found a way to fit the booster pump, but that will be evident once I have the engine under the car. Also, I think I've found a short enough V-belt for the alternator which I will be buying tomorrow.

Edit: I've added a picture showing the wear on the selector rod. There's no noticeable play with the new bush, though.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2023, 10:04:25 pm by Anders Dinsen » Logged

1982 Talbot Matra Murena 2.2 prep 142
2017 BMW i3 "Charged Professional" 94Ah

Used to own:
2001 Renault Matra Grand Espace "The Race" V6 24v
1997 Renault Matra Espace 2.0 8V
1987 Renault Matra Espace J11 2.2
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #283 on: July 16, 2023, 07:54:54 pm »

My son and I moved engine in place today. I still have a few things to check before I lower the car over it and fit it in the three mounts and start attaching it to water and electrics, but this gave me the opportunity to clean up my small garage so I have access all around the car. As can be seen in the picture, I've trial fitted the exhaust in some new exhaust rubbers I found. It seems I've finally found some that works well.

The other picture shows the heat shield sitting above the exhaust. I have removed rust and painted it with some high temperature paint.
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1982 Talbot Matra Murena 2.2 prep 142
2017 BMW i3 "Charged Professional" 94Ah

Used to own:
2001 Renault Matra Grand Espace "The Race" V6 24v
1997 Renault Matra Espace 2.0 8V
1987 Renault Matra Espace J11 2.2
roy4matra
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« Reply #284 on: July 17, 2023, 08:25:25 pm »

My son and I moved engine in place today. I still have a few things to check before I lower the car over it and fit it in the three mounts and start attaching it to water and electrics, but this gave me the opportunity to clean up my small garage so I have access all around the car. As can be seen in the picture, I've trial fitted the exhaust in some new exhaust rubbers I found. It seems I've finally found some that works well.

The other picture shows the heat shield sitting above the exhaust. I have removed rust and painted it with some high temperature paint.

Have you fitted the engine wiring loom to the engine Anders?  It is much easier to fit it and neatly before you instal the engine, and once in, you only have to connect the single plug on the right plus the earth wire on the chassis tower; plus the earth braid underneath of course.  It was made to be fitted like that.

Roy
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