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Author Topic: 2.2 dCi timing issue after belt change  (Read 67 times)
Martin Tyas
Sr. Member
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Posts: 273


Espace, because it's worth it!


« on: September 03, 2019, 01:00:18 pm »

Its been a long time since I last posted... but I still have my 2002 Grand Espace.

I was going to change the timing belt myself but the vehicle hoist I could have the use of is only a 2-post with 4 positionable arms that support a vehicle on it jacking points... so not practical to support the engine whilst removing the upper engine mount which is necessary to change the timing belt.
So I used a small independent auto engineer, that came highly recommended, to do the job for me.
I supplied the parts and locking tools.

All done in less than 2 hours and I then drove 45 miles / 72 Km without any problem... BUT... when I started it again it seemed to lack power and got worse before dying.
Cranking the engine over on the starter motor air could be heard coming up through the air filter and so the valve timing had obviously gone out.
So I had it recovered to the garage that did the timing belt to expect that the tensioner had moved or the bearing failed on the new tensioner or idler and then the timing belt had jumped a tooth or two.
The valve timing wasn't far enough out for any of the pistons to strike any valves.

They stripped it and found nothing at all wrong with the timing using the locking tools and no issues with the idler or tensioner. So having refitted the timing belt with the locking tools in place they decided to attempt to start it before refitting the cover and auxiliary belt. It started and ran perfectly.
So they refitted the auxiliaries belt and put everything back in place only for it not to start again and the valve timing having gone out yet again.

The mechanic knew another mechanic who worked on Renault , Vauxhall / Opel & Nissan vans equipped with the 2.5dCi which is fundamentally the same engine and he'd had a few issues over the years with the timing gear train that sits behind the timing belt. So they removed the auxiliary and timing belt again and took off the timing cover to access the gear train expecting to possibly find a gear with a tooth broken and which may explain why it will time up and run perfectly but then try again and it won't run... the possible explanation for that being that if the gears are in mesh when it starts then it keeps running skipping the broken tooth but if the broken tooth is in the wrong position at restart then the timing jumps out by a tooth and it won't run.

But upon examination of the gear train, whilst there is some wear as could be expected from an engine that's covered 150,000 miles / 241,000 km, there was no sign of any damaged or missing teeth.

So it has us baffled and wondering if anyone had experienced similar issues or had any idea what may be the cause of the valve timing been right one time the engine is started and then out the next time you try to fire it up.

thanks,

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
roy4matra
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 946



« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2019, 02:46:40 pm »

Its been a long time since I last posted... but I still have my 2002 Grand Espace.

I was going to change the timing belt myself but the vehicle hoist I could have the use of is only a 2-post with 4 positionable arms that support a vehicle on it jacking points... so not practical to support the engine whilst removing the upper engine mount which is necessary to change the timing belt.
So I used a small independent auto engineer, that came highly recommended, to do the job for me.
I supplied the parts and locking tools.

All done in less than 2 hours and I then drove 45 miles / 72 Km without any problem... BUT... when I started it again it seemed to lack power and got worse before dying.
Cranking the engine over on the starter motor air could be heard coming up through the air filter and so the valve timing had obviously gone out.
So I had it recovered to the garage that did the timing belt to expect that the tensioner had moved or the bearing failed on the new tensioner or idler and then the timing belt had jumped a tooth or two.
The valve timing wasn't far enough out for any of the pistons to strike any valves.

They stripped it and found nothing at all wrong with the timing using the locking tools and no issues with the idler or tensioner...

This is the first thing that has me puzzled, Martin.  If the timing had slipped one tooth somehow, and then you had it recovered to the garage, then when they stripped it, how could they find 'nothing at all wrong with the timing using the locking tools' as that to me does not make sense.  If the timing has slipped one tooth, since it is the crank doing the driving and the valve train resisting, then the valve timing should be one tooth advanced (hence air coming back through the filter as the exhaust stroke is pushing the gases out through an inlet valve which is open too early).

If the inlet valves at least are advanced one tooth (and I assume the exhaust valves also but you have not clarified that) then when you strip and check it, the timing tools should NOT fit.  If you have the crank in the right place then the cam cannot be if it is one tooth out; and if it was the cam in the right place then the crank would be out such its TDC tool would not fit.  So something does not add up here.

Quote
So having refitted the timing belt with the locking tools in place they decided to attempt to start it before refitting the cover and auxiliary belt. It started and ran perfectly.
So they refitted the auxiliaries belt and put everything back in place only for it not to start again and the valve timing having gone out yet again.

First mistake.  When they ran it before fitting the auxiliaries belt (and it ran perfectly) they should have stopped it, and then examined it closely, because it must have gone out at that stage or upon the next start up.  So if after examination it was still timed up correctly at that stage, then they should have attempted another start up still without the auxiliaries, as the deduction is that it must be at that point when it gets out of timing.  So stopping it a second time they would then see it was out.  In fact, if it was filmed closely (which most digital cameras can now do) they may have been able to capture and see the slippage.

Since nothing is apparently broken, the only other way for timing slippage is for some gear to be loose enough for slippage to take place, and since Renault no longer use a Woodruff key to lock the crank gear to the crank, that is the most likely gear to slip.

There is something else in the back of my mind too but I need to recheck that particular engine and procedure as it has been a while since I did one of those, so I'll come back a little later after I have checked.

Roy
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 10:37:54 pm by roy4matra » Logged

Martin Tyas
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 273


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2019, 03:36:53 pm »

Thanks Roy... I knew that if you picked up on this post that you would have the best insight into what the potential issue may be.

Just picking up on your comment regarding Renault no longer using woodruff keys because there may well be something in that. Having had a failure of the crank pulley rubber vibration damper at about 75,000 miles I had them fit a new pulley and bolt at the same time as the timing belt. If they haven't tightened that bolt enough then maybe the crankshaft gear within the timing gear train is slipping.

However... and I know that we cannot always necessarily rely on the accuracy service manuals... but 3736A page 10A-83 shows in the illustrations a key, and a keyway groove for that particular gear.
I've extracted the page and attached it for reference.

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
roy4matra
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 946



« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2019, 10:30:13 pm »

Thanks Roy... I knew that if you picked up on this post that you would have the best insight into what the potential issue may be.

Just picking up on your comment regarding Renault no longer using woodruff keys because there may well be something in that. Having had a failure of the crank pulley rubber vibration damper at about 75,000 miles I had them fit a new pulley and bolt at the same time as the timing belt. If they haven't tightened that bolt enough then maybe the crankshaft gear within the timing gear train is slipping.

However... and I know that we cannot always necessarily rely on the accuracy service manuals... but 3736A page 10A-83 shows in the illustrations a key, and a keyway groove for that particular gear.
I've extracted the page and attached it for reference.

Martin

Actually Ian alerted me to your posting otherwise I might not have picked it up for a while as I'm away tomorrow until next week.  This is why it is always better to email me directly.

Yes I know they show a key slot, Martin, and in fact there is still one in the crank as they never bothered to alter the machining process straight away, but it is no longer used and there will be no key in that slot (all to do with saving money as usual in my opinion, but they gave us a load of BS about why they don't use it any longer, which in my opinion is untrue!).  So I would be extremely surprised if there was a Woodruff key fitted and the greatest likelihood of the fault seems to me to be the gear is slipping.  The fact that they tell you to use some Loctite before the crank pulley is replaced also shows that the gear is not locked by a key and you are relying purely on the Loctitie plus the tightening of the pulley bolt.  Now since this tightening sequence consists of a torque first and then two additional torque angles, similar to modern cylinder head bolt tightening, that means you are taking the bolt to its stretch point and I would advise that the bolt is replaced just as they recommend you replace head bolts once they have been stretched more than once.  (thinking about this my new timing belt kit had a new crank bolt in the kit, so they obviously agree it should be changed!)

So I think you should remove the crank bolt and pulley, clean the gear and area to get rid of the old Loctite, then using some new Loctite and a new pulley bolt re-tighten the bolt to specification.  I would even make a tiny alignment mark first on the crank and gear, so if it does slip again you can see it when you next strip it down.

Note they also changed the torque and angles at least once (!) so you need the latest figures which should be in that 3736A update, and I believe it is 50 Nm plus one angle then wait a certain time, then another angle. (also note they give a torque figure in daNm but I simply multiply by 10 and use Nm, so 5 daNm become 50 Nm etc.)

One further point Martin, since I have just done a timing belt replacement myself on an old Renault and it is fresh in my mind; after you first fit a new timing belt and before you assemble any further you must remove the locking/alignment tools and rotate the engine by hand two or the times and then carefully bring it back to TDC and refit the alignment tools, to make sure they are still aligned correctly.  At no point must the engine ever be rotated backwards.  If you go past the mark even slightly you must go around again.

In my case I had not tightened the crank pulley sufficiently and mine started to slip (no key again!) so I had to set it all up again. Sad  But once it was correct, it fired straight away and has done since thankfully.

Roy
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 12:07:24 pm by roy4matra » Logged

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