| Home  Blogs Help Search Login Register  
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 Print
Author Topic: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system  (Read 3418 times)
pduke
Full Member
***
Posts: 55



« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2020, 04:28:26 pm »

Sensor replaced. It is a 5 minutes job and all seem to work great in terms of temps for the little french doll!
I still can't test 2nd fans speed cause i haven't managed to reach such high temps although i left it running for quite a bit. First scale cuts in intime and never let it go as high.
So far so good.
My warmest thanks to Roy who's help was invaluable.
Logged
roy4matra
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1069



« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2020, 01:31:47 pm »

Sensor replaced. It is a 5 minutes job and all seem to work great in terms of temps for the little french doll!
I still can't test 2nd fans speed cause i haven't managed to reach such high temps although i left it running for quite a bit. First scale cuts in intime and never let it go as high.
So far so good.
My warmest thanks to Roy who's help was invaluable.

The fact that your fans never cut in at the higher speed is quite normal.  I've had an Espace Quadra with air con. on the road for six years and never once did it get to the temperature to require the fans at high speed, even with some towing, and the air con. which automatically brings the fans on at low speed, that was enough to contain the temperatures, certainly in the U.K.

You could easily test the fans at their higher speed if you wanted to, by switching on the relay manually, or by linking out the radiator switch for the second stage, but you need to understand the electrics I suppose.  But as long as low speed is containing the temperatures why worry. (unless you plan driving in the Sahara maybe!)

Roy
Logged

pduke
Full Member
***
Posts: 55



« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2020, 02:32:02 pm »

The fact that your fans never cut in at the higher speed is quite normal.  I've had an Espace Quadra with air con. on the road for six years and never once did it get to the temperature to require the fans at high speed, even with some towing, and the air con. which automatically brings the fans on at low speed, that was enough to contain the temperatures, certainly in the U.K.
Well i suppose if the water coling system works fine, it won't have a problem. But still from my experience 2nd speed kicks in when the gauge goes deep in the reds... At this point i a stressed.

Quote from: roy4matra
You could easily test the fans at their higher speed if you wanted to, by switching on the relay manually, or by linking out the radiator switch for the second stage, but you need to understand the electrics I suppose.  But as long as low speed is containing the temperatures why worry. (unless you plan driving in the Sahara maybe!)
i don't know how to do that but now that outside temps are reaching 30 here,  i will let it work and test it's limits.
i have witnessed the whole system explode in front of my eyes, filling the cabin with cooland and steam ... so my worries are justified i guess...  Smiley
Logged
mhi
Full Member
***
Posts: 58


« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2020, 03:51:24 pm »

The two fans run in series (6 V each) for low speed, and in parallel (12 V to both fans) for full speed. The only difference is the switch position of three relays, and their controls from switches in the air conditioning and cooling systems. Full speed needs the three-terminal temperature switch to operate and two relays to change over, and not much more than that -- it's not under control of the ignition switch or any fancy electronics.

I've only noticed top fan speed after driving at walking speed up a mile-long dirt road which climbs a hill in Britain's Peak District. On a warm day I have sometimes parked the car with the fans roaring for a minute or so.

 - Mark
Logged

1994 Espace RXE 2.0 (J636)
pduke
Full Member
***
Posts: 55



« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2020, 04:09:02 pm »

I've only noticed top fan speed after driving at walking speed up a mile-long dirt road which climbs a hill in Britain's Peak District. On a warm day I have sometimes parked the car with the fans roaring for a minute or so.

 - Mark
Not sure if it is of any value, but do you remember the position of the gauge when the fast fan speed kicked in?
Logged
pduke
Full Member
***
Posts: 55



« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2020, 04:13:39 pm »

I finally managed to take her for a spin for about half an hour so i got new data. I believe it is good, it is just ... new behaviour.
Outside temp ~30C
in photo we have 4 white slices as temp indicators and at the end the red slice.
1. while driving temp never got above slice 2  (from photo) - i consider this to be low (?). in the past it was working about where it is in the photo(end of 3rd ~ start of 4th) (could it be the thermostat not working and thus keeping the cooland flow continuously?)
2. when i got back, until i get in my yard and park it in its place the temp reached the middle of the 4th white slice. Fan was on. before i switch the engine off, fan went off as well. So i switched of the engine and jumped out of the car. 2 or 3 minutes later the fan started working for about ~3 minutes.
in the past it was a common behaviour for the Espace to keep the fan spinning for some time after the engine was off. But i never witnessed a "pause" of minutes before it starts. Should this worry me?

I would really appreciate your input into this guys. This and a starter thing(which i ll post in a new topic) are the 2 considerations before i take the lady for plate retrieval and finally get her going again.

Logged
roy4matra
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1069



« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2020, 05:18:38 pm »

I finally managed to take her for a spin for about half an hour so i got new data. I believe it is good, it is just ... new behaviour.
Outside temp ~30C
in photo we have 4 white slices as temp indicators and at the end the red slice.
1. while driving temp never got above slice 2  (from photo) - i consider this to be low (?). in the past it was working about where it is in the photo(end of 3rd ~ start of 4th) (could it be the thermostat not working and thus keeping the cooland flow continuously?)
2. when i got back, until i get in my yard and park it in its place the temp reached the middle of the 4th white slice. Fan was on. before i switch the engine off, fan went off as well. So i switched of the engine and jumped out of the car. 2 or 3 minutes later the fan started working for about ~3 minutes.
in the past it was a common behaviour for the Espace to keep the fan spinning for some time after the engine was off. But i never witnessed a "pause" of minutes before it starts. Should this worry me?

That is quite unusual to stop then start again, but not necessarily a concern.  What happens when you park and switch off is that the heat of the engine soaks upwards, so soon after switching off, the top actually gets hotter before it starts to cool down.  The odd part is that the trigger for the fans is the switch in the radiator, which is lower down relative to the top of the engine.  The only thing I can think that would cause this would be that the hot coolant at the top moved down to the radiator and triggered the switch but why would it move downwards as that should not be the case.  I suppose a faulty relay could trip out and back in again a bit later when it should have stayed in.

When the fans came back on were they at the low speed or high speed?

Update: Just had another thought.  It could be a faulty thermostat causing your problems, so I would change it, even if it has been changed recently.  They are not expensive and can stick or fail and cause problems.

Roy
« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 05:49:13 pm by roy4matra » Logged

pduke
Full Member
***
Posts: 55



« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2020, 05:56:32 pm »

When the fans came back on were they at the low speed or high speed?
This happened 2 times. The first i was a bit far. I think it started at high speed, then down to slow and then it stopped. But i am not sure...
The second time it was low speed.
Quote
Update: Just had another thought.  It could be a faulty thermostat causing your problems, so I would change it, even if it has been changed recently.  They are not expensive and can stick or fail and cause problems.

Roy

This was my thought too. Could be the cause of the low engine temp when driving as well.
I will order a thermostat. It is a very easy part to replace.
Logged
pduke
Full Member
***
Posts: 55



« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2020, 09:53:05 pm »

Update:
It has been a few weeks that the situation changed. No matter how hot is the engine when i park, the fans never cut in after i switch the engine off. This is not good i guess. So i kept an eye on the temp always and when needed i switch the aircon on. This way the fans start at low speed. At least i have fans.
So i went on and ordered a thermostat as discussed with Roy.
The new thermostat came a few days ago. (Gates)
I replaced it and took it for a “hot” ride. Came back and the gauge was sitting just before the red block. I parked and let the engine running.
The fans started to cut in and out for some time - low speed only - while the gauge slowly but steady was deeping more and more inside the “reds”…. !!! (why cut out though since the temp was not dropping???)
When it reached the middle of the red block i started to worry too much, i switched on the air con,  opened the hood and i heard water bubbling from the tank but also from the engine block as well.
I immediately switched off the engine, turned the key so i have power and let the air con on so the fans keep spinning. It took quite a while for things to cool down …

I am not happy and i can’t understand. Tomorrow i am taking her to the mechanic. He is not a renault specialist but he seems experienced.
So far i have replaced the two sensors at the thermostat housing, the thermostat and i also have a  new fan switch waiting to replace the old. (https://www.autodoc.co.uk/fae/2495721) I was unable to do this myself.
But i am thinking, what could be wrong here? If the problem is the switch then why is it giving the command to start? Is it just going “crazy”?
What about the bubbling? should such thing happen? Do i have an air leak?
Shall i tell them (the mechanics) anything specific to watch out for?
cheers all once more Smiley

Pan
« Last Edit: August 18, 2020, 10:00:16 pm by pduke » Logged
Anders Dinsen
Administrator
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3091



WWW
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2020, 04:46:41 am »

Update:
It has been a few weeks that the situation changed. No matter how hot is the engine when i park, the fans never cut in after i switch the engine off. This is not good i guess. So i kept an eye on the temp always and when needed i switch the aircon on. This way the fans start at low speed. At least i have fans.
So i went on and ordered a thermostat as discussed with Roy.
The new thermostat came a few days ago. (Gates)
I replaced it and took it for a “hot” ride. Came back and the gauge was sitting just before the red block. I parked and let the engine running.
The fans started to cut in and out for some time - low speed only - while the gauge slowly but steady was deeping more and more inside the “reds”…. !!! (why cut out though since the temp was not dropping???)
When it reached the middle of the red block i started to worry too much, i switched on the air con,  opened the hood and i heard water bubbling from the tank but also from the engine block as well.
I immediately switched off the engine, turned the key so i have power and let the air con on so the fans keep spinning. It took quite a while for things to cool down …

I am not happy and i can’t understand. Tomorrow i am taking her to the mechanic. He is not a renault specialist but he seems experienced.
So far i have replaced the two sensors at the thermostat housing, the thermostat and i also have a  new fan switch waiting to replace the old. (https://www.autodoc.co.uk/fae/2495721) I was unable to do this myself.
But i am thinking, what could be wrong here? If the problem is the switch then why is it giving the command to start? Is it just going “crazy”?
What about the bubbling? should such thing happen? Do i have an air leak?
Shall i tell them (the mechanics) anything specific to watch out for?
cheers all once more Smiley

Pan

It sounds like you have a leak somewhere. This is critical, especially when the engine is idling since at low engine speeds the flow of water inside the engine reduces due to the water pump running more slowly.  In a well maintained cooling system heating causes a pressure build up in the system, but no boiling. If there is a leak, however, the pressure will not be able to increase and the water will therefore start boiling when the temperature locally reaches 100 deg C inside the cylinder head. The fan switch could be defective, but could also be running in hot steam, not water, and therefore might not activate the fans correctly.

Look for leaks of water on the ground.

An experienced mechanic should be able to find and correct the problem, which is critical to fix as it may end up ruining your engine.

Best,
Anders
Logged

'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
pduke
Full Member
***
Posts: 55



« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2020, 09:52:55 am »


It sounds like you have a leak somewhere. This is critical, especially when the engine is idling since at low engine speeds the flow of water inside the engine reduces due to the water pump running more slowly.  In a well maintained cooling system heating causes a pressure build up in the system, but no boiling. If there is a leak, however, the pressure will not be able to increase and the water will therefore start boiling when the temperature locally reaches 100 deg C inside the cylinder head. The fan switch could be defective, but could also be running in hot steam, not water, and therefore might not activate the fans correctly.

I have experienced such behavior before. I am not sure it was under the exact same conditions, but at that time i had to replace the tank cap and everything went back to normal.
The thing is, how safe is it to peak the temps in order to find out if the boiling is fixed? Cause there is no boiling before reaching middle reds on the gauge.
Quote

Look for leaks of water on the ground.

An experienced mechanic should be able to find and correct the problem, which is critical to fix as it may end up ruining your engine.

I couldn't spot any, plus the tank keeps the same level. I will reattach the hose where i replaced the thermostat. I think i can push it a few more mm. The leak could be only when the pressure is high 
(by the way my appointment was postponed....  Embarrassed)

Pan
Logged
Anders Dinsen
Administrator
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3091



WWW
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2020, 02:26:08 pm »

I have experienced such behavior before. I am not sure it was under the exact same conditions, but at that time i had to replace the tank cap and everything went back to normal.
The thing is, how safe is it to peak the temps in order to find out if the boiling is fixed? Cause there is no boiling before reaching middle reds on the gauge.

Quote

Look for leaks of water on the ground.

I couldn't spot any, plus the tank keeps the same level. I will reattach the hose where i replaced the thermostat. I think i can push it a few more mm. The leak could be only when the pressure is high 

Sounds good that it keeps the same level. Is it really exactly the same?

How about checking the tank cap again? Also, every hose connection, and hose checking for leaks. The radiator fan switch should be replaced, of course. In case the fan runs are driven by the swich through a relay (I don't remember), replacing the relay might also be a good idea.

/Anders
Logged

'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
pduke
Full Member
***
Posts: 55



« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2020, 02:51:16 pm »


Sounds good that it keeps the same level. Is it really exactly the same?

naaaaah... i was so sure but.... naaah

I took out the hose, pushed the thermostat deeper and tightened it more securely, all the way.
Went for a small drive. Came back to find the valve at the top of the hose leaking....
I used teflon to tight it (don't know if it is a good idea). It seemed tight as should.
Filled the tank with cooling liquid.
I started the engine and wait long enought to reach high temps
- First time the fan cut in much earlier than other times when the gauge was enetering the last white block (so seemed to work much better ....(Huh))
- temps kept going up
- Fans cut in and out throught out the proccess.
- i didn't push it hard but it managed to keep the gauge just before the reds.

But there! i got the bubbles again. Much less but there.
So it seems i have a hiss from the thermostat housing area, high likely it is this freaking plastic valve ...
and another hiss from the tank cap (i think...)
There is no liquid going out from either, rather than air coming out, or could be steam(??) but no visual to justify such assumption.

Quote
How about checking the tank cap again? Also, every hose connection, and hose checking for leaks. The radiator fan switch should be replaced, of course. In case the fan runs are driven by the swich through a relay (I don't remember), replacing the relay might also be a good idea.

How do i check the tank cap? I mean, how do i now that it's valve is working like it should. Could the hiss i heard be a bad sign or a sign of normal operation? Like, this is what the tank cap valve does, deflates (??) the system when in pressure ??

As a coclusion so far, the cooling system seems highly unstable... everytime is a new adventure! Everything works as NOT expected....
I will replace the hose with one cheap i have without a valve. This should at least help me to undestand if the problem is elsewhere.

Pan

Logged
Anders Dinsen
Administrator
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3091



WWW
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2020, 04:19:06 pm »

Sounds like you're one the right path!

Quote
How do i check the tank cap?

I don't think there's a way except visually. The tank cap It is supposed to keep the coolant system sealed off completely - until the pressure reaches a certain point by which it will vent out air. So it's essentially a valve.

I think it's a good idea to replace the hose with the screw valve. I would use silicone grease to seal off the value.

Remember: Only fix one thing at a time! And then test and see if it changes anything.

Best,
Anders

Logged

'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
pduke
Full Member
***
Posts: 55



« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2020, 03:13:54 pm »


I think it's a good idea to replace the hose with the screw valve. I would use silicone grease to seal off the value.


This is a much better idea!! Since the original hose is much better made. I thought it couldn't be sealed so thank you for the tip!!
So i have :
- A PTFE white grease spray by Morris. High temp 160C.
- High temp silicon sealant. up to 1250 Celcious. The black one.

i will try the first one and if it doesn't do the job i will seal it with the black silicon.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to: