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Author Topic: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system  (Read 1596 times)
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2020, 05:59:03 pm »


I think it's a good idea to replace the hose with the screw valve. I would use silicone grease to seal off the value.


This is a much better idea!! Since the original hose is much better made. I thought it couldn't be sealed so thank you for the tip!!
So i have :
- A PTFE white grease spray by Morris. High temp 160C.
- High temp silicon sealant. up to 1250 Celcious. The black one.

i will try the first one and if it doesn't do the job i will seal it with the black silicon.

I think it's a good idea to replace the hose with the screw valve. I would use silicone grease to seal off the value.


This is a much better idea!! Since the original hose is much better made. I thought it couldn't be sealed so thank you for the tip!!
So i have :
- A PTFE white grease spray by Morris. High temp 160C.
- High temp silicon sealant. up to 1250 Celcious. The black one.

i will try the first one and if it doesn't do the job i will seal it with the black silicon.

I was thinking about clear silicone grease that doesn't dry up. On second thought, be careful that the grease doens't make it into the cooling system.

Could there be a crack in the rubber?

If you can find a new or good used original hose that would be best.

/Anders

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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
mhi
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« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2020, 11:26:55 pm »

That valve is a bleed point for filling the cooling system. It might be leaking because a tiny bit of dirt has got into it; and I'd try (first time) wipe clean and then seal it with PTFE (plumber's, Teflon) tape. That may be what you have done. Don't seal it up with a permanent silicone sealant.

The leak's probably allowed air to be sucked into the cooling system, and the resulting bubbles and airlocks might be affecting the water flow and confusing the thermostat, various temperature sensors and switches even after the leak itself is fixed. This thread's been there already!

The other place my J63 once suffered a slow leak was where the pipes connect to the heater matrix, in the cabin rather than in the engine compartment. The main symptom of that is a patch of damp carpet in the right-hand foot well, and that only shows up in colder weather. I trusted the dismal Haynes manual about that, and spent a whole weekend replacing the heater matrix -- a long job for my right-hand-drive model, because the steering column gets in the way. That was useless: the parts which were leaking were two O rings in the connecting joint.

If you have this leak, reply and I'll try to describe how to replace the O rings. It takes about 30 minutes, and parts cost next to nothing. It was years ago so I'll have to renew my memory by touch.

 - Mark
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1994 Espace RXE 2.0 (J636)
pduke
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« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2020, 12:59:34 am »


I was thinking about clear silicone grease that doesn't dry up. On second thought, be careful that the grease doens't make it into the cooling system.

yes the grease was a bad idea... The permanent siliocon was probably not so bad but i didn't fully test it. I had to go immediatelly so i stopped at the local gas station for a check. Leak!! big leak from the vlave. I applied a decent amount of Teflon (the plumber's one as Mark mentioned, comes as white tape) Since then i got no leaks, no bubbles. All good. So it seems it was the valve after all.

That valve is a bleed point for filling the cooling system. It might be leaking because a tiny bit of dirt has got into it; and I'd try (first time) wipe clean and then seal it with PTFE (plumber's, Teflon) tape. That may be what you have done. Don't seal it up with a permanent silicone sealant.

The leak's probably allowed air to be sucked into the cooling system, and the resulting bubbles and airlocks might be affecting the water flow and confusing the thermostat, various temperature sensors and switches even after the leak itself is fixed. This thread's been there already!

You are right, after all the leaks and the final teflon appliance, it seems that the temps are a bit better. Still no high speed fan. I start to believe that the last mechanic that replaced the switch 5 years ago may have used the single speed one intended for vehicles without air condition.

The other place my J63 once suffered a slow leak was where the pipes connect to the heater matrix, in the cabin rather than in the engine compartment. The main symptom of that is a patch of damp carpet in the right-hand foot well, and that only shows up in colder weather. I trusted the dismal Haynes manual about that, and spent a whole weekend replacing the heater matrix -- a long job for my right-hand-drive model, because the steering column gets in the way. That was useless: the parts which were leaking were two O rings in the connecting joint.

If you have this leak, reply and I'll try to describe how to replace the O rings. It takes about 30 minutes, and parts cost next to nothing. It was years ago so I'll have to renew my memory by touch.

 - Mark
Well we are getting in a bigger conversation here ... Unfortunatelly i have no heater connected. No hot air inthe cabin. 5years ago we were playing in Poland. In a jam in the highway the engine got too hot (unfortunatelly i was asleep) and the heater blew off... Coolant all over the cabin... Nasty situation. So we disconnected the hose that comes from the heater and we twisted the second in the place of the first one so we have circulation of the coolant.
So this Espace has a history of high temps. The switch was replaced just before that trip. But i can't recall fan speeds.
Probably the new switch will give the solution i am waiting for.

Thank you both so very much for your help Smiley
i will be reporting.
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roy4matra
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« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2020, 08:29:26 pm »

Update:

I replaced it and took it for a “hot” ride. Came back and the gauge was sitting just before the red block.


To me, that statement tells me something is wrong anyway because in all my driving, including towing and over the Alps, my temperature gauge never got near the red sector!  In your posting 22nd June with annotated photo, my cars were always in sector 3 white zone and rarely ever got into sector 4 and certainly nowhere near the red sector.

So it sounds like yours is running too hot anyway.


In another post (Aug 18th) you said this:
'high likely it is this freaking plastic valve ...'

I have proper brass bleed screws that are a straight swap for those horrible plastic ones.  And you shouldn't need any Teflon or other sealant as these use a rubber 'O' ring under the head of the bleed screw (both types).  Check if your plastic screw has the 'O' ring, though as they don't come with the brass screw.  If you want one, they are just over £10 plus extra if you need a new 'O' ring, plus postage.


And the recent posting (Aug 20th) has this:
'Still no high speed fan. I start to believe that the last mechanic that replaced the switch 5 years ago may have used the single speed one intended for vehicles without air condition.'

This is really easy to check.  The single stage switch for cars without air con. only have two terminals (and is cheap) whilst the two stage switch for cars with air con. have three wires and these are already attached to the switch, so the switch comes as standard with a short bit of loom and a plug on the end, which plugs in to a socket on the engine loom.  You must have this switch for a car with air con. to work correctly.

Roy
« Last Edit: August 26, 2020, 08:49:05 pm by roy4matra » Logged

pduke
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« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2020, 04:01:11 pm »


To me, that statement tells me something is wrong anyway because in all my driving, including towing and over the Alps, my temperature gauge never got near the red sector!  In your posting 22nd June with annotated photo, my cars were always in sector 3 white zone and rarely ever got into sector 4 and certainly nowhere near the red sector.

So it sounds like yours is running too hot anyway.


After i secured the bleeding screw with teflon my temps look better. While driving on the highway i am in the 3rd sector. If i push it though(above 4000rpm) for a a bit it starts reaching the 4th. But hte main problem is when idling in hot days. It is better now but still it is flirting with the reds...
Of course securing the bleeding screw doesn't mean that i fixed it. There could still be a minimum loss of pressure on high temps.
Still i am worried if the problem is inthe head or generally from the engine and not the cooling system.
As a general knowledge i know that the engine temps should be stable. Not vary too much cause that is bad for the engine metal parts etc.


In another post (Aug 18th) you said this:
'high likely it is this freaking plastic valve ...'

I have proper brass bleed screws that are a straight swap for those horrible plastic ones.  And you shouldn't need any Teflon or other sealant as these use a rubber 'O' ring under the head of the bleed screw (both types).  Check if your plastic screw has the 'O' ring, though as they don't come with the brass screw.  If you want one, they are just over £10 plus extra if you need a new 'O' ring, plus postage.


That is good to know. I am still waiting my mechanic for an appointment... As soon as i have that - and his opinion on what is going on in this car - if i need the screws i ll pm you so we can arrange a postage.


And the recent posting (Aug 20th) has this:
'Still no high speed fan. I start to believe that the last mechanic that replaced the switch 5 years ago may have used the single speed one intended for vehicles without air condition.'

This is really easy to check.  The single stage switch for cars without air con. only have two terminals (and is cheap) whilst the two stage switch for cars with air con. have three wires and these are already attached to the switch, so the switch comes as standard with a short bit of loom and a plug on the end, which plugs in to a socket on the engine loom.  You must have this switch for a car with air con. to work correctly.


Here is a picture from the two sockets. I suppose having 3 terminals means i have the correct one. Still, is there a way to check if the fast speed works? Earth something? wire something? ... Roll Eyes



cheers Roy

Pan
« Last Edit: September 01, 2020, 04:03:24 pm by pduke » Logged
roy4matra
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« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2020, 07:09:07 pm »


Here is a picture from the two sockets. I suppose having 3 terminals means i have the correct one. Still, is there a way to check if the fast speed works? Earth something? wire something? ... Roll Eyes



cheers Roy

Pan

Yes it would appear to be the three wire switch.  To check, one of the outside wires should be positive with 12 volts+ and the other two feed relays.  One feed (I think the other outer wire) is for both fans half speed and the middle wire will activate the relays such that both fans come on at high speed. (but it could be the other way around)

So find which is 'A' the outer wire with battery voltage, it might be this only gets a feed when the engine is running so if you don't get a voltage on any of the three connections that will be why.

The other outer wire is classed as 'B' and the centre one is 'C'.  If you pass a voltage down either B or C the fans should operate as low or high speed.

Roy
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pduke
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« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2020, 07:01:19 pm »

yesterday i got a call and arranged the appointment with the mechanic. Just got the car back.
and the odyssey continues ....
Now it seems i have a changed behaviour.
I went for a ride, all good in terms of temps, return and let idle.
Gauge goes up naturally, no fans.
reaches the red zone, and immediatelly full speed cuts in!! The tornado!
and then half speed for a few seconds, i am still not sure this wasn't just the ease off.
then stops.
and then the same over and over again.
Nothing bubbles but everything is freaking hot in the engine compartment.
At least it managed to keep the gauge at the same place. Start of reds. But it couldn't bring it down from there. And today was a cool day with 29 degrees.
The mechanic told me to replace the Colorstat sensor for the gauge.
I have my doubts, but on the other hand i am out of ideas. A 25 minute ride reaching 160km/h and the gauge reached the middle of the 3rd sector. This seems like a nice working sensor to me. I mean, except if a sensor loses track after a certain amount of heat. I don't know. Cry

Oh well, at least i know full speed is working and probably the engine wont blow if i forget to check the gauge.
I am certainly going to scare people in a traffic light though, when this tornado kicks in! Grin

cheers all,
Pan
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2020, 07:54:24 am »

Quote
Nothing bubbles but everything is freaking hot in the engine compartment.

It sounds like you have air trapped in the system. Try bleeding it.

/Anders
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'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
pduke
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« Reply #38 on: September 09, 2020, 11:05:51 am »

Quote
Nothing bubbles but everything is freaking hot in the engine compartment.

It sounds like you have air trapped in the system. Try bleeding it.

/Anders
You are right and I am tired... After many hours of testing i am sure that the screw is problem one. Might be more but this one leaks air after the system reaches a temp and above. No matter what i did, it happens. And when it happens the system is full of air when it cools down. I bleed it and the circle starts again. its pointless and dangerous.

So, Roy i sent you a pm for those copper ones you have. Please confirm that you got my message cause my outbox is always empty.(seems like a forum software problem(?))
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