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Author Topic: j63 Roof lining full repair  (Read 1624 times)
pduke
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« on: June 09, 2020, 11:37:05 am »

For starters if the term "roof lining" is incorect do tell me so i can correct the title.

One of the many unfortunate events my espace had to suffer was the complete falling of 2 out of 3 roof lining parts. Photos can give you a pretty good idea.
I don't know why this happened but i t did and it is a mess. Makes the interior look old, cheap, mistreated and ugly. While passengers inside an espace should be happy, smiling and in a general uplift mood.

Looking through the net, other car models (probably ALL other car models ), have one continuous lining based on a plastic (or something) bed.
Now Espace seems to have one layer of foamed material about 4 -5 mm thick that appears to have had a sticky surface when it was new and a second layer above (or below since this is on the roof) which is a square piece of carpet.
And we got 3 of those combinations for every part of the roof.

I don't know if they could be reused but i have the "carpet" pieces intact. What i defeinately need is the foam parts and ... a way to put them all back together.

Obviously these parts are old and very hard to find. Only thing i found is this , numbers 5 and 6 but they both link to broken links.
On the other hand i believe that there should be an easy way to fix this since the net is full of "solutions" but not for such roof cause there is nothing to tie the lining on, stretch it and "clip" it back.

Anyone had any experience, any ideas what to buy and how to procceed( material, glues, techniques etc )?


« Last Edit: June 09, 2020, 11:40:35 am by pduke » Logged
mhi
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« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2020, 12:54:48 pm »

I have a copy of a Renault document MR300ESPACE7.PDF which possibly ought to be in this site's vault but is not. I'm not sure where I got my copy from! It covers in detail, but to the usual poor grade of scanning or copying for Renault documents, most of the repair details for interior trim.

No part numbers, but it does have concise instructions for replacing the complete head lining. Three panels of (sound and heat insulation?) felt and foam in two layers, glued to the roof, and, if I read it right, one layer of fabric stretched tight but not glued.

Several of the MR300 manual sections seem to apply to the J63 range. Are they allowed to be extracted from dialogys or wherever their originb# might be, and can they properly be added to the Matra vault?

Mark
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1994 Espace RXE 2.0 (J636)
pduke
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« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2020, 01:19:44 pm »

I have a copy of a Renault document MR300ESPACE7.PDF which possibly ought to be in this site's vault but is not. I'm not sure where I got my copy from! It covers in detail, but to the usual poor grade of scanning or copying for Renault documents, most of the repair details for interior trim.

No part numbers, but it does have concise instructions for replacing the complete head lining. Three panels of (sound and heat insulation?) felt and foam in two layers, glued to the roof, and, if I read it right, one layer of fabric stretched tight but not glued.

Several of the MR300 manual sections seem to apply to the J63 range. Are they allowed to be extracted from dialogys or wherever their originb# might be, and can they properly be added to the Matra vault?

Mark
Thanks Mark i found it! actually i found all pdfs of all Renaults.... in one torrent.   Grin
As you said it has full instructions. Not easy to understand, especially if English is not your native like me, but it is there.
In the instructions a "Foam" and an adhesive are mentioned.
Can you point on any online store for these two so i can understand what i am looking for?
cheers!
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mhi
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« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2020, 04:50:37 pm »

In the instructions a "Foam" and an adhesive are mentioned.
Can you point on any online store for these two so i can understand what i am looking for?
I can guess, but I am not a Renault or Matra technician, just an owner. (Roy, for example, may be able to give an answer rather than a reasonable guess like me.)

"Foam" is probably the same sort of stuff as is used for chair cushions. It is sold in sheets of almost any thickness you need. Example seller online: https://www.anyfoam.co.uk/.

"adhesive" is probably a spray adhesive. Again I would guess it's similra to what is used for chairs (upholstery).

The diagrams are not very clear but show thick foam (15 mm?) and thin felt (2 mm?).

There may be specific safety regulations about the materials used for any foam, such as that if it is heated in a fire it should not give off poisonous fumes. I am not an expert! Check such rules for yourself.

 - Mark
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1994 Espace RXE 2.0 (J636)
roy4matra
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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2020, 01:49:50 pm »

For starters if the term "roof lining" is incorect do tell me so i can correct the title.

Anyone had any experience, any ideas what to buy and how to procceed( material, glues, techniques etc )?

Roof lining is perfectly correct here.

As for repairing it, if you still have the original pieces of material that came off the roof panels, then the simplest way to repair them and make it look tidy again is this.

I didn't worry about the foam except to clean it all completely off the roof panels and the back of the material that was going to be stuck back.  If you don't get it all off you will find the material will not stick properly and the surface would be lumpy.  Next you need to buy some proper trim spray glue that the motor industry uses.  Ask at a body repair place if your motor factor cannot supply it.  Many other glues don't work properly or they may appear to stick but if the roof gets hot on a sunny day, you find the material coming down again!

Next mask up around the edges so any over-spray of glue is contained, and spray the roof panel surface, as per the instructions on the can.  Then carefully push the material back onto the roof.  Note you cannot move it around - it is a contact adhesive, so you need to get it exactly positioned right from the start!  Do a trial fit before you spray any glue on.  Start at one edge and smooth it onto the roof all over and let it dry.  It will look just as good without the foam backing, although it might not have quite the same sound insulation i suppose.  It never bothered me and I never noticed any problem.

Roy
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pduke
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« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2020, 05:28:19 pm »

oops, i didn't spot your answer.
Yes i have the two carpet like pieces intact. So this is good and i need to clean the front as i did with the back.
Meanwhile i found a store where they sell a stick-it armaflex (i think, or k-flex). They told me they use it for cars, it is not flammable, it insulates sound and temperature and it comes in panels of 6mm and 10mm.
it looks like this :


They also told me that although it has glue on it, since the roof is plastic i better use an adhesive spray for plastics.
Underneath it i can spray and glue the original roof linings.
It seems very doable Smiley
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pduke
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« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2020, 04:58:21 pm »

I am pretty proud today, i managed to fit the new insulation and glue the roof lining. it is not proffessional but i believe it is decent work.

So i bought 2 pieces of this sticky insulation product at 5mm - 120x240 each, (it is not branded unfortunatelly)

I placed the two lining pieces above so i could cut it at the exact shape.


then after carefully cleaning the old remainings from the roof i used the sticky side to place them on the roof

(forgot to take a photo from the front side)

Last i aligned the old linings (this is kinda tricky, i tried to wedge one of the 4 sides in the rail so i have a steady side)
i spreyed lots of this adhesice spray (we call it Petrol Spray or adhesive for leather ....) It has a fiber like result.


and then with a wallpaper pressing roller (that was all i got but it did the job) i pressed the lining with lots of power in all its surface for best results.

and here we are now




I did the front and the back. The center piece will fall someday. I will deal with this then ..



Next mask up around the edges so any over-spray of glue is contained, and spray the roof panel surface, as per the instructions on the can.  Then carefully push the material back onto the roof.  Note you cannot move it around - it is a contact adhesive, so you need to get it exactly positioned right from the start!  Do a trial fit before you spray any glue on.  Start at one edge and smooth it onto the roof all over and let it dry.  It will look just as good without the foam backing, although it might not have quite the same sound insulation i suppose.  It never bothered me and I never noticed any problem.


That was  a pain ... a real pain! And working in the heat of the day with 32C outside and a piece of carpet hugging you ... not good...

So cheers everybody! to the few Espaces left out there.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 05:15:19 pm by pduke » Logged
roy4matra
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« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2020, 11:33:57 am »

I am pretty proud today, i managed to fit the new insulation and glue the roof lining. it is not proffessional but i believe it is decent work.
...
So cheers everybody! to the few Espaces left out there.

Looks good, well done.

Roy
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pduke
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« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2020, 11:36:41 pm »

Thank you Roy but it seems that my joy lasted 1 day...
Today i went to the hardware store, parked it under the hot sun and came back to find it with the lining making a "belly" in the middle on both front and back pieces. The insulation is stuck as should but the cloth on top of it, didn't. I have followed the instructions carefully so i suppose this is just not the right adhesive for the job. Could you please advise on which adhesive should i use? Could it be the "silver" surface of the insulation that needs a different approach?
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roy4matra
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« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2020, 09:24:34 pm »

Thank you Roy but it seems that my joy lasted 1 day...
Today i went to the hardware store, parked it under the hot sun and came back to find it with the lining making a "belly" in the middle on both front and back pieces. The insulation is stuck as should but the cloth on top of it, didn't. I have followed the instructions carefully so i suppose this is just not the right adhesive for the job. Could you please advise on which adhesive should i use? Could it be the "silver" surface of the insulation that needs a different approach?

The spray adhesive that you used - does it say it is suitable for car interior trim including specifically head lining trim?

Who recommended this particular product?  If is was a motor factor, they are not always ideal as they just want to sell some stock and don't always know if they are really good for head linings which are one of the hardest things to stick up as gravity is always pulling downwards and the roof always gets a lot of heat on hot days!

If you have a body workshop near you and you can ask them what they use, and explain your problem, you might find a better product.  I'm not sure if I have any of my adhesive left to be able to tell you the name of the manufacturer, and in any case it might not be available where you are.  But I will have a look in my garage tomorrow.

The other problem might be that insulation you attached to the roof first.  It may be the adhesive was absorbed into it and didn't leave enough to glue the lining sufficiently.  Or the lining stuck to the surface but the surface was affected by the adhesive and failed for that reason.  Did a tiny layer of the sound insulation stick to and come down with the lining?  Obviously you won't be able to tell this without removing it completely, as so far, it has only dropped in the middle.

If you got this adhesive from a local motor factor, whilst is it in this partially dropped state, ballooning down in the middle, can you drive the vehicle there and show them the problem and show them that the product is unsuitable?

Roy
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pduke
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« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2020, 12:47:17 pm »


The spray adhesive that you used - does it say it is suitable for car interior trim including specifically head lining trim?

Who recommended this particular product?  If is was a motor factor, they are not always ideal as they just want to sell some stock and don't always know if they are really good for head linings which are one of the hardest things to stick up as gravity is always pulling downwards and the roof always gets a lot of heat on hot days!

If you have a body workshop near you and you can ask them what they use, and explain your problem, you might find a better product.  I'm not sure if I have any of my adhesive left to be able to tell you the name of the manufacturer, and in any case it might not be available where you are.  But I will have a look in my garage tomorrow.

The other problem might be that insulation you attached to the roof first.  It may be the adhesive was absorbed into it and didn't leave enough to glue the lining sufficiently.  Or the lining stuck to the surface but the surface was affected by the adhesive and failed for that reason.  Did a tiny layer of the sound insulation stick to and come down with the lining?  Obviously you won't be able to tell this without removing it completely, as so far, it has only dropped in the middle.

If you got this adhesive from a local motor factor, whilst is it in this partially dropped state, ballooning down in the middle, can you drive the vehicle there and show them the problem and show them that the product is unsuitable?

Roy

1. No, no one told me that it is for use on car headliner. Nobody knew actually. But the kind of adhesive is from the same family.
2. The insulation is intact. The problem could be though that the surface where the lining should stick on is like aluminum. Like silver shiny thing. I think it is shown in the photo of the back insulation part.
3. Nothing else happened but the lining just unstuck and hang in it's entire surface. (at least i did a good job wedging the ...edges so it is still there ...)
4. if you fiind yours please advise, i could order it from the UK. ebay is full of sellers.
5. I also found that 3M Super 77 and Permatex 27828 are good for car headliners, or at least that's what amazon reviewers say. I might as well order one of these.
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mhi
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« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2020, 04:25:13 pm »

The shiny aluminium surface of your insulation pads may be difficult to stick to. It might be necessary to spray (or paint) a layer of a different adhesive onto the aluminium, and let it dry, to make a dull surface to which the final adhesive will stick firmly. Normally the advice for adhesive on smooth metal is to roughen it, but you can't do that to a thin foil.

Warning -- I am not an expert. My Espace has not needed this work yet. (Though it does need its two "sunroof" openings painting, before aluminium corrosion makes them into rain roofs.) Take Roy's advice rather than mine!

 - Mark
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1994 Espace RXE 2.0 (J636)
MatraIan
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« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2020, 10:12:29 pm »

Check forum link
http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php/topic,2986.225.html

And the page before about the Murena headling telboy did. He had the same problem, but re did it using a different adhesive as advised by JL
You really need to use an adhesive like this one
https://www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/high-temperature-contact-adhesive-1-one-litre

Hope this helps
Ian
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roy4matra
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« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2020, 04:27:14 pm »


4. if you find yours please advise, i could order it from the UK. eBay is full of sellers.


My can of adhesive (which I eventually found but is virtually empty) was called Force, and it had a website link of www.forceproducts.co.uk  However, when I tried to take a look, their website was down as it was being rebuilt!

Roy
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pduke
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« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2020, 08:14:27 pm »

Guys thank you so very much for the information.
I still can't believe that the top adhesive is a no name with an A4 printed in a printer for label ... but since you suggest it i will order one and try it in the near future.

Roy i found the firm, Force, but i can't fiind anything in the web. Still it is nice to know that a sprey could do the job. It is so much easier with a sprey.

Meanwhile, a friend of mine brought me another adhesive. I did the job again, speying tooo much this time. Same thing. Bellies started hunging after 2-3 days.

Anyway i got serious sounds from the front axle, steering rack? joints? bushes? i don't know yet but i have to fix this first. If it is the rack then i do not know if it is of any worth giving that much money. I ll see how it turns up. I will open another post (!!) for that.

So the roof lining job will pause for a bit. When i have news i will write em here.

Thank you all again!!
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