Under my 1.6 pt.1 : Leaking waterpump

[Grapes]

Hi!

Sorry images seem to be huge :S I knew I needed to make them small but this wasn't small enough apparently...
So I removed the images.

Sooo finally had a good look under the car (I know, should've done that when I bought it...)
It's definitely leaking from the water pump but the pictures that I took from the pump aren't great. The video just shows what's dripping down the ...carter?: https://youtu.be/rBlWULlsLQs

I checked the manual and the replacement of the pump seems to be really straight forward; drain system, bolt off, bolt on.
Roy's website's alternative list mentions the Dolz T116 which is nicely available so I'm planning to buy that.
Any things I need to pay attention to? Or is it really just a matter of drain, disconnect, bolt off, bolt on, connect, fill? (Are there e.g. no pastes required that need to be applied?)

Can this be done as a roadside repair if I buy some ramps? They seem like an easier and safer tool than a jack and stands but I have no idea if that's true.

Also if I buy enough supplies that I will likely need again in the future I can get free shipping so additional suggestions are welcome (grease?, Fluids?, Spare lights? etc. I have hardly anything yet)

[murramor]

Hi Grapes.  As you say, the 1.6 waterpump is easily available.  It is quite quite easy to change and you should be able to have enough room under the car to work if you place it on ramps.  The new pump should come with a paper gasket so you should have everything that you need to simply remove the old one and bolt on the new one using the new gasket.  I think the most difficult thing to reach will be the alternator bolts which you need to loosen to adjust the fanbelt.  As you will be working with the belt, you should probably order a new one as a precaution.  Since you will be draining the system, you will need new coolant also and you will need to bleed the system of air.  I have seen discussions on this forum and Roy's site which will give you some hints about how to do this.  It is always a good idea to minimise shipping costs by buying as many things as you can at one time.  Have a look at brake pads and disks and all the rubber hoses in the cooling system before you order.  It is particularly annoying to drain the cooling system and then find that some of the hoses are looking suspect.

Good luck
regards
Ron

[Grapes]

Hi Ron,

Great advice! Manual didn't mention the alternator bolts at all. Instead it says that I have to remove the water pump pulley which should indeed make the belt come off. I checked the belt and it seems fine but I'll get a spare one all the same. Better safe than sorry eh?

I'm indeed suspicious about the brake system. I don't have calipers to check it all and I also read somewhere on the forum that it's possible to upgrade the brake system to one that's easier to maintenance however doing this seems a bit hard with my lack of knowledge and the information was minimal. Any suggestions there?

[suffolkpete]

You'll need to slacken the alternator belt to release the tension.  The pump is otherwise straightforward to change.  There should be a bleed valve in the top hose.  When you fill it, do it while the car is still on the ramps with the header tank at the highest point.  Regarding the brakes, they are very effective if  properly maintained.  The front brakes are a simple single pot sliding caliper and the rear brakes are more complicated but can easily be serviced if you follow Roy Gillard's excellent guide, mentioned in another thread on this forum.

[Grapes]

Ah brilliant, that's a relief to hear. Thanks for the tip about filling whilst still at an incline. I assume that is to aid the coolant in getting to the radiator up front. Will peruse the manual for the alternator belt adjustment!
Thanks!

[Grapes]

New pump should be on the way but I just noticed the coolant that I ordered is different from what I was using
(I just picked the largest quantity packaging that was suitable for the Murena according to the car website but now that I read the label I'm not sure any more.)

So this leads to some additional questions I hope someone can help me with.

I've got a good quantity of "ready-to-use silicated OAT lobrid antifreeze" that should be more than enough to fill the entire system. However it also states "Can be applied in all modern cooling systems" which makes me wonder:

1.  Compatibility
Can I use this in the Murena after entirely flushing the system? Or will the design of the system somehow cause issues with this type of coolant?

2. Flushing the system
• What's the easiest way to completely flush the system?
Can I simply flush it by draining it, replacing the pump, filling it with some sort of cleaning product and distilled water and draining it again? Or does this car need a different procedure?
I've watched a few videos and they all followed more or less this procedure but some talked about tap water as well after the cleaning product so that confused me a bit.
• Also what to use for cleaning the system?

[suffolkpete]

You should use a blue anti-freeze.  Modern OAT types are not suitable, they may attack some components or interact with what is already there.  I should just run clean tap water through the system, it's very hard to drain it completely, there is always some residue in the heater.

[roy4matra]

I've got a good quantity of "ready-to-use silicated OAT lobrid antifreeze" ...

This is for modern cars, as Peter states.  OAT stands for Organic Acid Technology, is red in colour and is not suitable for older car systems such as the Murena.  These need IAT, blue in colour which stands for Inorganic Additive Technology.  The modern stuff can attack parts of the system in an old vehicle.

There is a third type HOAT which is Hybrid Organic Acid Technology which is Turquoise in colour, but unless it was recommended by the manufacturer (obviously not in the case of the Murena) I would ignore that one altogether.

2. Flushing the system
• What's the easiest way to completely flush the system?
Can I simply flush it by draining it, replacing the pump, filling it with some sort of cleaning product and distilled water and draining it again? Or does this car need a different procedure?
I've watched a few videos and they all followed more or less this procedure but some talked about tap water as well after the cleaning product so that confused me a bit.
• Also what to use for cleaning the system?

There is no easy way to flush the system on these cars because of the remote location of the radiator compared to the engine and the fact that the pipes linking them go under the car and are therefore lower.

Plain water is fine to flush with, but you must never leave any plain water in any system with aluminium parts such as the Murena uses for the cylinder head, for a long length of time because the aluminium and water react and the sludge will block small passages such as in the radiator.

You can buy special fluid for radiator flushing but with any system you need to flush in the opposite way to normal flow, so you would have to strip the radiator out of the car to flush it properly, and similarly with the metal pipes you need to remove them to clean out.  The only way to really clean out the engine block is to remove it from the car, then remove all the core plugs.  If you are totally stripping to overhaul the engine, then by all means get the block cleaned at the same time.  If you can see that the cooling system has a lot of muck in it, then it might be the time to clean it out.

Roy

[Grapes]

Alright thanks for the quick feedback guys!
I've returned the coolant and placed an order of blue instead. Can't wait for the pump and other parts to arrive!

[Grapes]

Yay, parts have arrived! And replacing the pump went really well until while screwing the last bolt in the new pump, the bolt broke 😭

I do think the bolt will stick out a few mm so I hope i can easily extract it.

Going to get new bolts first though. Can I just get them at the hardware store?
Any particular type?

When I have bolts I will remove the pump again and try to extract the bolt from the carter with some pliers. 🤞

Another suggestion I've been given was to get the car to a garage and let them extract it and put the new pump on for me. I assume that they'll have the required bolts at hand as well.
It needs to be MOTd anyway so I'll have to bring it to the shop anyway.

What is wise?

[Grapes]

Eeehm.... where can I find which bolts I need? I tried the manual but I can't find it 

[Anders Dinsen]

I'll recommend a proper extraction tool set for removing the bolt to prevent damage to the block. I have one of these and it has already saved me in a difficult situation. I think you can probably find something similar: https://www.biltema.dk/varktoj/handvarktoj/gevindskarersat/sat-med-skrueudtrakkere-25-dele-2000040658

I have checked my reproduction of the original parts manual and it doesn't show the size or type of the bolts. They have a Talbot part number 80625211 but it's not the same as on the 2.2 which I could measure for you. So I'm not sure. Simon's manual does not show the bolts. I would think they are 7 mm, but I recommend you contact CarJoy or Simon Auto to get a new set of bolts. I would have thought the water pump came with new bolts, but obviously that did not happen.

If you feel safe replacing the pump yourself (don't overtighten the bolts, *only* do them to the specified torque!), I don't see why you shouldn't complete the job yourself. If you are unsure in any way, by all means take it to the garage and leave it to experienced hands to do the job. If the garage is used to work on old french cars with 7 mm bolts, they should be good.

Best,
Anders

[suffolkpete]

All bolts are metric and can be bought from local trade suppliers, however note that 10mm bolts have a 1.25mm thread pitch, whereas most ones commercially available have a 1.5mm pitch.  This seems to be a French (and Japanese) car thing.  Careful with the extractors though, if they break off they are almost impossible to drill out.  If it were me and there is a bit of stub left I would try locking pliers first or even weld a nut on the end of the stump, the heat generated by the welding may help to loosen the bolt.

[roy4matra]

Yay, parts have arrived! And replacing the pump went really well until while screwing the last bolt in the new pump, the bolt broke 😭

Any particular type?
 

The four bolts in the 1.6 water pump are indeed 0080625211 as Anders states, and they are M7x1.00x45mm. (these are exactly the same as 18 of the bolts holding the 2.2 sump to the block see Frame A31-02)  Now 7mm thread bolts are not that common - it was NOT an ISO metric size but the French seem to love using non-standard sizes  Check around to see if you can get them easily.

Roy

P.S. my modified Matra parts manual has the exact bolt sizes for as many as I have managed to find out so far, but if anyone can provide me with exact details of any bolts in any of the manual frames, please let me have the Matra frame number, part number and the details as above - thread size and pitch followed by length and I will add any I don't already have, to my master parts manual.  Thanks.

[Grapes]

Okay so I haven't measured it yet but based on the answers I am looking for an m7 but possibly with an unusual pitch? Because M7 seems relatively common on the webs at least.... 🤔