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Author Topic: Dan's 1.6 repairs  (Read 17044 times)
Grapes
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« Reply #135 on: January 30, 2022, 10:12:55 pm »

OK here we go again.
Tried figuring this out myself but haven't been able to.

So the old starter motor was the Mitsubishi M3T19871.
At first I thought I had to replace it with the Paris-Rhone D8E 147 which I found after a long search... to be not fitting... Not quite sure what the exact reason here is but I think I understand from other posts on this forum that there's several gearbox models for the 1.6? So I assume the Paris-Rhone D8E 147 fits one of the other gearboxes?

What I have now is a Bosch 0.986.013.210 which I assume is a later incarnation of the Bosch A 001 208 151?

However... the Mitsubishi M3T19871 was connected with 4 wires...
1 on the terminal numbered 1
1 on the terminal numbered 2
2 on the screw numbered 3
(See attachment)

The Bosch however does not have the terminal numbered 2.
At first I thought I should just unscrew the terminal numbered 2 from the Mitsubishi and add it to the short bolt coming from the solenoid housing but I searched generic starter motor diagrams and some seem to suggest that no wires should be connected to that one.
Undoubtedly foolishly I tried it without the wire connected which resulted to a fuse blowing out. (Hoping that's saved anything getting damaged.)
So now I'm guessing you guys will call me a fool for trying and hopefully telling me how I should connect the Bosch starter correctly.

I attached a picture I found online which made me doubt if I should attach the loose cable to the smaller screw. It looks similar to the Bosch connections I have.
And I attached a picture of the wire that I couldn't find a connection terminal for.
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Murena1400
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« Reply #136 on: January 31, 2022, 09:00:49 am »

- On number 1 comes the starter solenoid (from the key), goes to the contact lip on the bosch starter.
- Number 2 goes to the diagnosis connector, its a 12v signal, not used on the bosch starter.
- Number 3 is the constant 12V from the battery, there is a large diameter lead connected to it that goes to the battery and a little smaller in diameter lead that goes to the alternator.

Your findings on the 2nd image are correct, you just dont connect number 2, there is no provision for it and its not a necessity as well, you could make a contact lip on the bolt that olds the wire to the starter itself but there is no need.
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Grapes
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« Reply #137 on: February 01, 2022, 12:10:15 am »

Ah brilliant!

I still need to figure out why it's blowing the fuse though. Huh

I'll transfer the terminal to connect it to the other bolt just in case in the hopes that resolves matters.
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roy4matra
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« Reply #138 on: February 02, 2022, 11:32:26 am »

OK here we go again.
Tried figuring this out myself but haven't been able to.

So the old starter motor was the Mitsubishi M3T19871.

At first I thought I had to replace it with the Paris-Rhone D8E 147 which I found after a long search...

Where did you find the Paris-Rhone D8E 147 was supposed to be the correct starter for a 1.6 Murena?  If you checked the Murena parts manual, the listed starter motors were:  M003T19871 (which you had)  M003T19771,  M003T39781,  or Paris-Rhone D9E43, D9E44 or D9E83.  There was no reference to any D8... at all so I'm not surprised that didn't fit.

Quote
... there's several gearbox models for the 1.6? So I assume the Paris-Rhone D8E 147 fits one of the other gearboxes?

As I think I've said before you shouldn't assume anything!  That only leads to trouble.  In the case of the Murena *NO* Paris-Rhone D8 model is listed for any Murena whether 1.6 or 2.2 model.  They all use a D9...  The 2.2 uses a different one obviously (D9E 45) but as you see that is also a D9 not a D8.

Quote
What I have now is a Bosch 0.986.013.210 which I assume is a later incarnation of the Bosch A 001 208 151?

I haven't checked out any Bosch starter motor cross reference, so i can't verify your selection but if it fits and works, that seems like it is probably OK.  On any 1.6 Murena the starter motor MUST have a support bracket to the block at the opposite end to the clutch bell housing, so as long as you have that, the mounting should be good.

Quote
However... the Mitsubishi M3T19871 was connected with 4 wires...
1 on the terminal numbered 1
1 on the terminal numbered 2
2 on the screw numbered 3
(See attachment)

The Bosch however does not have the terminal numbered 2.

Do you not have a wiring diagram?  If you had, but you must have one of my accurate diagrams because there are many on the internet that have lots of mistakes, and that circuit 17 to your number 2 is one of the very ones that is wrong as it uses the same circuit number as the hand brake warning light, which is clearly incorrect!

You would see from the wiring diagram that the circuit from your number 2 goes to the diagnostic socket and it is for diagnosing problems if you have a starter motor problem.  Therefore it isn't necessary for actually starting the engine, BUT it is very useful for an auto-electrician checking the starter and solenoid.

You can certainly leave the wire off, and it won't be a problem, but you lose the ability to check the starter and solenoid easily.  Without it you have to test at the starter itself which is more difficult to get to.

Quote
At first I thought I should just unscrew the terminal numbered 2 from the Mitsubishi and add it to the short bolt coming from the solenoid housing...

You don't understand enough about electrics, so you should never start modifying things you don't understand!  That often leads to mistakes, damage and possibly injury.

Quote
Undoubtedly foolishly I tried it without the wire connected which resulted to a fuse blowing out.

Please tell me which fuse has blown?  If you had checked a correct wiring diagram, and understood car electrics, you would known there are NO fuses in the starter motor circuit!

So I am really curious to know which fuse has blown and how!

It sounds like you have another problem or someone has connected the wiring incorrectly.

I repeat, there should be *no fuses* in the starter motor circuit, so what has blown?  Replacing a fuse that has nothing to do with the starter circuit will not solve whatever has caused it to blow, certainly not by changing the starter motor!

You must understand what you are doing.

Roy


Update: I have done a cross check and the Bosch 0 986 013 210 does appear to be correct.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2022, 12:09:42 pm by roy4matra » Logged

Grapes
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« Reply #139 on: February 03, 2022, 10:26:19 am »

Hi Roy,

Ah that's good to know about there's not being a fuse in the starter circuit.

I'm not entirely sure which fuse went but it was either the dashboard instruments one or one of the window motor ones.

The D8E is mentioned in the Dutch workplace manual. I suspect that might have been used for our 2.2 engines then.
I'll attach a part of the scan for your reference. I hope it's not too big.

I'll have another look when the weather clears up a bit again. The window motors had been giving me some troubles so perhaps I should use this as motivation to check them out.
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Grapes
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« Reply #140 on: February 06, 2022, 12:43:47 pm »

OK, tried starting again. First try the power went dead but the fuses where fine. Then I took the minus from the battery and back on, turned the key a few times and the starter worked perfectly. Took a while to get the engine going but at least I can drive it to the guy who offered to help me with it now for a full check up.
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Grapes
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« Reply #141 on: February 12, 2022, 11:57:40 am »

Aaand yesterday it didn't want to start again. The road assist checked the battery and we tried jump leads but couldn't get it to work so it was towed and I'll get it back on Monday.
Turning the key we could hear a click but only very faintly. The road assist guy thinks that either the new starter is also seized or there might be another electrical problem. Guess I'll have to remove the starter and bench test it after all.
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roy4matra
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« Reply #142 on: February 12, 2022, 03:23:22 pm »

Aaand yesterday it didn't want to start again. The road assist checked the battery and we tried jump leads but couldn't get it to work so it was towed and I'll get it back on Monday.
Turning the key we could hear a click but only very faintly. The road assist guy thinks that either the new starter is also seized or there might be another electrical problem. Guess I'll have to remove the starter and bench test it after all.

This is exactly where the original diagnostic connection, which so many dismiss, would have aided diagnosing problems with the starter solenoid and motor electrically.

If it is a new starter motor and it is faulty, at least that should be under warranty.

Roy
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matramurena
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« Reply #143 on: February 14, 2022, 09:24:04 pm »

You could try the "good old way" by shorting the startersolenoid and see if it works. Smiley Or the bit safer way of setting a startbooster directly on the starter and turning the booster on. If you get to the connectors of the starter that is..
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1983 Matra Murena V6 (AR engine)
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Grapes
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« Reply #144 on: February 14, 2022, 10:16:12 pm »

Yep, makes sense.

Thanks for the tip about connecting the booster to the starter. That should be something I can get to fairly easy.
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Grapes
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« Reply #145 on: February 16, 2022, 04:52:19 pm »

So the towing depot delivered the car back on Monday and on Tuesday I thought "Let's try and start it just to see what happens" and then it started without any problems :/
Actually it started with less problems than I experienced since I got it back on the road again.
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Grapes
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« Reply #146 on: February 17, 2022, 09:43:15 am »

Found an article about common problems with cold weather starting failure which got me thinking.
It mentions:
"If you jump start your car and the engine dies immediately, this points to a faulty alternator.

You may also notice your headlights and dashboard lights flickering, the car’s gauges moving in a jerky manner – and even a burning smell filtering into the cabin if the alternator has recently overheated.
"

Now we couldn't jump start it in the first place but it did remind me of the fact that when I turn the headlamps on the dashboard lights dim and when I used the power windows, the same thing happens. And I might be misremembering but I think recently I had the radio on and the wipers and lights and when I tried to turn the high beams on the engine died.
Regardless of the starting issue this doesn't seem right and I was going to inquire about that but forgot. Now I'm thinking this might be linked in some way.

Since it's mostly raining and horrible out anyway I probably don't want to roll the windows down anyway and figured it might be a good time to clean the motors. I assume I can remove these without the windows rolling down by themselves right?.

I seem to recall reading there's no replacement for them, is this still the case? And what about the rest of the mechanism? The plastic around the cable broke on one side and I remember last year when you keep holding the switch it would rattle and stop working. Would love to get the power windows working again on both sides.
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roy4matra
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« Reply #147 on: February 17, 2022, 02:33:46 pm »

Found an article about common problems with cold weather starting failure which got me thinking.
It mentions:
"If you jump start your car and the engine dies immediately, this points to a faulty alternator.

You may also notice your headlights and dashboard lights flickering, the car’s gauges moving in a jerky manner – and even a burning smell filtering into the cabin if the alternator has recently overheated.
"


I don't know who wrote those statements, but they are wrong, and far too simplistic!

Take the first - "if it dies immediately it, points to an alternator fault"  A load of rubbish.  There are loads of reasons why an engine might die immediately after starting, and these could be fuel, ignition, timing, etc. and it would also depend on what type ignition was fitted, so without stating what system it is talking about, the statement as I said is meaningless.  The alternator only starts charging after the engine is running, and if the battery was too flat that it needed a jump start from a booster of one sort or another, then the first thing the alternator has to do is up its output to try to recharge the battery.  But it is not the first thing you would be checking other than to see that the voltage has come up to charge the battery.  But the battery must first have been checked thoroughly to make sure it has no faults, and the circuits to see if there are any problems, because the first thing to know is why has the battery gone flat?  There are also different types of batteries and some need different charging rates, so if for instance someone fitted a calcium silver battery that is meant for a modern Ford, then it needs a higher charge voltage than the standard alternator on a Murena can provide.

Sorry Dan, but you understand so little about the intricacies of cars from what we have seen here that you cannot know all the things that technicians have been taught and learn over many years, and it would take many years to try to teach you.  Even after over 35 years in the trade, I spent 9 weeks solid training at Renault U.K. to become one of their RTEs that can handle all the latest network computer cars and the latest electronics and all the special tools we need to help us diagnose problems.

The second statement talks about an alternator that has recently been overheated.  Checking the alternator would not be the first thing to check if an engine stalled immediately after starting unless that coincided with removing the battery from which you jump started it.  First why was the alternator suspected to have been overheated and how does anyone tell that?  Did it look burnt?  I wouldn't expect you to know or answer this, I'm just telling you something which you probably haven't even considered, to show there is far more to this than those statements.

You haven't stated why it was better after it was returned to you, if it was better.  Did you even ask them what they found?  If I had any idea what they had done, it might, (or might not) give me some idea why you were having problems starting it even when you tried jump starting it without success.


Quote
Since it's mostly raining and horrible out anyway I probably don't want to roll the windows down anyway and figured it might be a good time to clean the motors. I assume I can remove these without the windows rolling down by themselves right?.

What have I said before about assuming things?  You NEVER assume anything.

You are totally wrong because you need to remove the windows before you can remove the motors and mechanisms which are one assembly.  And there is a special way to remove these WITHOUT cutting any of the door internal panel.

You can still get these motors which were made by Rockwell and fitted to a number of different cars but each had their own design mechanism, and the motor you might get might not fit straight into the Murena mechanism without some changes.

The reason for the rattle is that the worm and wheel were disengaging one another and slipping, owing to the housing not being held tight to the mechanism.  That can be fixed.

But the reason they may be slow or not working at all can be due to a variety of problems and you have to track down which is causing them, from poor wiring, contacts, switches, earths, worn brushes or corrosion in the motors, stiff mechanisms, etc. etc.  You cannot just jump in and say I need to get the motors out and fix them when you don't even know the cause of the problem yet.

You are not a trained technician, and there are trained mechanics here (by here, I mean in Europe, not the forum) with years of experience that still don't understand enough to know how to tackle a Murena because it is rare and to some extent different.  Only 2 weeks ago I had to sort out a problem on a Murena caused by a mechanic that no idea what was wrong, and he had cost the owner much money without fixing the problem, by doing some major expensive work that was totally unnecessary.

This forum is not here to train you to become a mechanic.  A Murena today needs to be owned by someone who has a working knowledge and tools to do the jobs necessary, or is a trained professional such as myself.

Before you ask a question here, do you even bother to search my FAQ pages or all the forum for previous topics on the subject, and the answers they may provide?  Do you understand the wiring of the electric window system?  Have you checked any of it for poor contacts, wiring, fuses, relay etc. etc.   Or the amount of current being drawn and under what circumstances?  As with all problems, you collect the information in detail first, both from the car, and sources such as the other posters here, analyse it all to decide where the most likely causes are and then check them out.  Only then if you are finding it difficult to work out what is wrong, should you start asking questions.

Finally, I should point out that one topic should be for one subject and the heading reflects that.  You started this posting asking about the electronic dipstick, and for anything else a new posting should have been started IF there was no answer already here on that subject.  You are asking about all different things under one topic and posting.  That should not be the way, and it makes it more difficult to search for answers as yours are covering many subjects, that causes the posting to go to many pages, and the topics are all mixed up.

Roy
« Last Edit: February 26, 2022, 11:52:35 am by roy4matra » Logged

matramurena
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« Reply #148 on: February 17, 2022, 09:00:05 pm »

Well, I think you are being a little harsh here Roy. A Murena is rare, but the mechanics an sich are far from exotic. Anyone who is capable and willing to learn should be OK with most repairs. Basic knowledge is of course required. You will learn a lot by working on a Murena. Not neccesarily in the best, fastest or easiest way, but if your interested and have the basic skills you will be all right in the end.  Smiley Smiley

In this case, I think cleaning the motors of the windows is not the first thing to do. If you could not start the car with the booster on the battery but it startet first time with a direct connection then you might want to check your starter-solenoid. However since it is your 2nd starter and you said that it would work again after removing the battery lead for some time there might be a bigger issue here.

Does it start now with the battery instead of the booster? If it does not work you could measure if you have 12V comming into the starter main lead. Also check if you have a good connection from the starter ground to the battery. If its OK you can measure for 12V on the solenoid when you turn the key. If you have that, measure the secondary side as well.

There are multiple components that can effect you circuit and it is impossible to say what is going on without standing around the car and checking things, however from what you said my geuss right now would be a bad negative lead from the starter to the battery. >This would explain jumping leads not to function and a booster directly to the starter to work just fine. Easy to check this and costs you no money!  Grin You could even take one of your jump cables and connect it directly from the starter ground to you battery. (if it is long enough) see what that does.

Lots of luck!
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1983 Matra Murena V6 (AR engine)
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roy4matra
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« Reply #149 on: February 18, 2022, 10:23:58 am »

Well, I think you are being a little harsh here Roy. A Murena is rare, but the mechanics an sich are far from exotic.

I totally agree with you, but that is what makes all these mistakes by supposedly professional mechanics with years of experience so much more incredible.  I have had to sort out so many problems over the last few years caused by professional mechanics who have cost the owners a great deal of time and money, without fixing their cars, and even in one case leaving the customer with an unusable car, when it had been fine when it went into the garage!

They had still charged one over £1,000 and another over £2,000 which they would like to get back but taking it through legal channels costs even more money without a guarantee they will get it all back.  And all this work was done for nothing because they diagnosed these incorrectly in the first place.  And in case you are wondering, one of these was an old Peugeot and another an old Ford, neither very complex and not as rare or unknown as a Murena!

So yes it may be a little harsh, but I'm trying to get across to Dan that without any real basic knowledge and relying on others who I know from years of experience, are often not really competent themselves; of the monumental task he has ahead of him, because he has picked a rare and unusual car which most professionals do not know or understand even as much as a common model.

This could easily cost him a great deal more than it should.

We all learn (or should) from our mistakes and from knowing the solutions to things.  So anytime work is done by someone else, you should get an invoice with a full explanation and if not you must ask what the fault was and how it was cured, and make a note of it.  So far he hasn't given us any idea of how the starting was cured - if it has been cured really.  Therefore I can't tell if it has been overcome.

As I keep saying, you collect all the data, analyse it, then work to the solution.  I know from over 45 years of experience in the motor trade, probably over 80% of mechanics are not capable of doing this sufficiently.  So I'm trying to help by cross checking what was done, but I need all the details first.

Roy
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 10:31:46 am by roy4matra » Logged

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