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Author Topic: E10 FUEL  (Read 1735 times)
TELBOY
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« on: June 18, 2020, 05:41:19 pm »

As its been raining most of today work on EOW has ground to a halt so I have been reading the motoring sections online.
One article has got me somewhat concerned so I need someone with greater knowledge to reassure me.
It concerns the fact that as of next year unleaded fuel (not the higher octane or more expensive type) will have twice the level of Ethanol in a bid to reduce emissions! (may as well buy a Tesla)
They have stated that Ethanol has a detrimental effect on most things a Matra has, ie:-
It dissolves plastic, (not very good when we have a plastic tank!)
degrades rubber (fuel pipes)
blocks fuel filters and corrodes carbs.
The article states, quote " it can eat through rubber, plastic and fibreglass"
The article states that higher octane or premium fuel will not change for another 5 years!
Just wondering if any of our European cousins have to endure this yet, and if they do how do they get around it?
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roy4matra
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« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2020, 09:27:00 pm »

As its been raining most of today work on EOW has ground to a halt so I have been reading the motoring sections online.
One article has got me somewhat concerned so I need someone with greater knowledge to reassure me.
It concerns the fact that as of next year unleaded fuel (not the higher octane or more expensive type) will have twice the level of Ethanol in a bid to reduce emissions! (may as well buy a Tesla)
They have stated that Ethanol has a detrimental effect on most things a Matra has, ie:-
It dissolves plastic, (not very good when we have a plastic tank!)
degrades rubber (fuel pipes)
blocks fuel filters and corrodes carbs.
The article states, quote " it can eat through rubber, plastic and fibreglass"
The article states that higher octane or premium fuel will not change for another 5 years!
Just wondering if any of our European cousins have to endure this yet, and if they do how do they get around it?

All Murena should be using the higher 98 octane petrol anyway Terry.  You cannot run the 2.2 on standard 95 octane as it will 'pink' badly which I have proved in the past doing comprehensive tests, even with some of those various additives.  Most people cannot distinguish between pre-ignition ('pinking') and detonation, and pinking often leads to detonation anyway... and detonation is severe enough to blow holes in your pistons!  So always use Super or 98 octane.

As far as I'm aware the same applies to the 1.6 engine.  However, as you have a Peugeot 1.9 in your car, that may be able to run on 95 octane, I really don't know, you would need to check with Peugeot, but you would also need to be sure of the age, full spec. and compression of that engine.

As for things like the fuel tank - you don't have to worry about that - it is bullet proof!  However, all Murena by now should have had their fuel rubber hoses changed to the latest spec. that are fit for both the low-leaded fuel and the latest ethanol fuels because most of the companies here have been providing E5 for some time even without marking the pumps.

As for the carburettor, that should be O.K. but the fuel level might need a slight adjustment as the specific gravity of the ethanol fuel is different and the float will ride at a different height.

Roy
« Last Edit: June 18, 2020, 09:31:15 pm by roy4matra » Logged

TELBOY
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« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2020, 10:38:54 pm »

But when they double the ethanol even in the higherboctane wont that effect in anyway even though its 5 years down the road. The artcle also stated it badly reacted with solder. I think floats in webber carbs may be held on with solder! Or are the powers at be just scare mongering.
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JV
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« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2020, 11:09:16 am »

On the site of the Dutch Automobile Club (KNAC) there is an article with (in Dutch) this text:

Many classic car owners refuel with bioethanol Super Unleaded 98 or another high octane (98 or higher) gasoline, in order to avoid problems, but just the designation Super or 98 Octane is no guarantee that the gasoline is ethanol free. The KNAC has asked fuel companies whether they still supply petrol that is free of bioethanol, and that appears to be three. In alphabetical order, these are BP Ultimate (98 octane), Firezone Premium 98 (98 octane) and Shell V-Power (98 octane). Firezone supplied Competition 102 until 1 October 2019, but has replaced it with unleaded premium petrol without bioethanol. The confusion remains, however, because even on pumps with bioethanol-free petrol, a sticker with the designation E5 must be affixed.
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Jan Verdam
Matra Murena 2.2S bleue columbia
suffolkpete
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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2020, 11:50:43 am »


As far as I'm aware the same applies to the 1.6 engine.  However, as you have a Peugeot 1.9 in your car, that may be able to run on 95 octane, I really don't know, you would need to check with Peugeot, but you would also need to be sure of the age, full spec. and compression of that engine.

Roy
I seem to recall an official Peugeot document  posted on this forum some years ago that said the Murena could be run on Regular.  That said, I always run my 1.6 on Super, I get a couple more mpg which compensates for the difference in cost.  I used to have a Peugeot 405 GR1.9 which I bought new back in the days when 4 star was available and which had the same engine as your Murena.  When 4 star ceased to be available the local main dealer modified it to run on regular unleaded, which seemed to involve retarding the ignition by two degrees. It never went as well after that and tended to pink when hot, so my recommendation would be that you run it on Super.  My solution was to sell it and buy a diesel! Smiley
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roy4matra
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« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2020, 01:18:26 pm »

But when they double the ethanol even in the higherboctane wont that effect in anyway even though its 5 years down the road. The artcle also stated it badly reacted with solder. I think floats in Weber carbs may be held on with solder! Or are the powers at be just scare mongering.

There may be a possibility with the old brass and soldered floats in the older carbs. having a problem, but I have yet to hear of any.  But it is certainly something to consider and check out occasionally.  Many carbs. had their floats replaced with plastic versions, and the 2.2 Solex certainly has plastic floats which should not be a problem.

In the U.K. Esso are the one main supplier that has always stated their 98 or Super petrol does not contain any ethanol and is the one I rely on for my Murena.  I believe that the Super fuel at all Tesco stations is also Esso or comes from the same stocks and is supposed to have no ethanol.  I tried for some time to get a statement from Shell who were reluctant about their fuel, but eventually they admitted they do put ethanol in their Super petrol, and consequently I no longer use it!

Roy
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suffolkpete
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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2020, 05:33:17 pm »

My understanding of the way petrol is distributed is that fuel comes via a pipeline from the nearest refinery to a local terminal and ethanol and all the other ingredients that give branded fuels their magical properties are added to the tanker before delivery.  It seems that not all terminals add ethanol, so it's a bit of pot luck, but petrol company policy seems to be to label all pumps as E5 whether or not there is ethanol added.  I run my 1.6 and my Rover P6 on Tesco 99 RON wherever possible and have not experienced any problems with either.
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GP
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« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2021, 10:17:05 pm »

Thought it time to revisit this topic.

An update on ESSO Fuel from their website of interest to those in the U.K:

What is the ethanol content of your fuels?
The majority of unleaded 95 Octane petrol sold in the UK contains up to 5% ethanol as required under the Government’s Renewable Transport Fuels Obligation (RTFO).

There is currently no requirement for renewable fuel (such as ethanol) to be present in super unleaded (97 and 99 grade petrol).

Esso super unleaded petrol (Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded 97 and Synergy Supreme+ 99 ) is ethanol free (Except in Devon, Cornwall, North Wales, North England and Scotland). We would therefore advise anyone who has concerns about the presence of ethanol in petrol to use Synergy Supreme+  – providing they do not fill up in Devon, Cornwall, North Wales, North England and Scotland. The European standard BS EN228 covers the requirements for 0-5% ethanol unleaded petrol, the labelling requirement for zero % ethanol is E5 (as is up to 5%), a E0 label doesn’t exist.

Our Synergy Fuels:

Diesel
Supreme+ Diesel
Unleaded
Supreme+ Unleaded
Supreme+ 99

P.S. Click on this link if interested further in an ethanol free fuel.....

http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php/topic,3432.msg25502.html#msg25502

or even.....

https://aaoil.co.uk/product/r-storage-plus/
« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 08:21:36 pm by GP » Logged
roy4matra
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« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2021, 05:40:12 pm »

As its been raining most of today work on EOW has ground to a halt so I have been reading the motoring sections online.
One article has got me somewhat concerned so I need someone with greater knowledge to reassure me.
It concerns the fact that as of next year unleaded fuel (not the higher octane or more expensive type) will have twice the level of Ethanol in a bid to reduce emissions! (may as well buy a Tesla)
They have stated that Ethanol has a detrimental effect on most things a Matra has, ie:-
It dissolves plastic, (not very good when we have a plastic tank!)
degrades rubber (fuel pipes)
blocks fuel filters and corrodes carbs.
The article states, quote " it can eat through rubber, plastic and fibreglass"

As I stated in my posting after this one of yours Terry, there is no concern with the fuel tank, but you must replace rubber fuel hoses with the latest types which state they are suitable for fuel with Enthanol in it.  It is the water that is in Enthanol that will 'corrode' the alloy of the carbs. and corrode metal fuel lines or fuel tanks, but that water takes some time to separate out when the vehicle is unused for long periods.  So a car being constantly used and the fuel being replenished often doesn't allow time for the water to separate or accumulate.  This is why classic cars that are taken off the road for months say over a winter, could have trouble, and therefore with these it is best to leave very little fuel in them or drain them whilst unused.

Quote
The article states that higher octane or premium fuel will not change for another 5 years!

I wouldn't totally believe that if I were you, as things are changing all the time these days.  Look out how the ban on selling petrol or diesel engined cars was to start in 2040, then it came down to 2035 now it looks like 2030.  Hybrids are now banned from 2035.  Yet we know that we couldn't have a motoring system that only used all totally electric vehicles either, as the infrastructure could not cope, so there will be more hydrogen fueled vehicles I'm sure, and they are currently producing synthetically made fuel, which one or two manufacturers at least are working on having cars that will run on that.  Research and development mean things will gather pace from now on.

The only thing you can say for certain is that the next ten years will have lots of changes.

Roy
« Last Edit: May 25, 2021, 05:47:18 pm by roy4matra » Logged

Oetker
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« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2021, 11:20:23 pm »

After running my 1600 on 95 fuel for the past year now I had to clean the carb for the second time. in a short while.
Inspecting the hoses I found them stickey.
The hoses where already chagged in2013 to new one with DIN specification.
The rubber is desintegrating.
The car runs on a daily basis but no more then 1500-2000 miles a year.
I think I wil do a standard change after 4 years including carburator.
The fuel pump had no problem so far.
The special Ethanol free fuels that are for sale are not to be found in my neigberhood.

Herman
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I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
suffolkpete
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« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2021, 11:12:31 am »

The fuel tank in the Murena is polypropylene, which is not affected by ethanol.  You should replace your fuel hoses with ones which meet specification SAEJ30R9.  The R9 is the important bit.  some suppliers will try to sell you R6, which is not suitable.
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