Electric cars... Cont'd from the end of the Galvanising thread.

[krede]

Should be a small matter to have the Murenas converted to electric power :-)
A fuelcell or two in the front might even improve the weight distribution a bit 

[Jacobosterlindh]

Should be a small matter to have the Murenas converted to electric power :-)
A fuelcell or two in the front might even improve the weight distribution a bit 

WORD 

Why don't we build a matra with 30% Electric power in the front and a 70% Etanol power... Thats counts as a environmentally acceptable car by the authorities. And when that don't work, we just convert to 100% Electric power.

[krede]

Not only stainless.. but now also ELECTRIC eel

[Lennart Sorth]

or a Matra Zoom

or maybe even an electric M25 (a la Tesla's electric Lotus Elise)

/Lennart

[krede]

Yahh..
I discovered the Tesla roadster about a year ago, and since then Ive been going with the desire to build an electric car of my own.!!
Latest on that note would be the purchase of two books "Build your own electric vehicle " (big surprise eh? ) and "convert it"...
Of cause this project is only at the "dreaming/research" stage, as I: 1) dont have the time for it....2)dont have the space to build/recharge it 3) and really dont have a need for it
...but some day...

I really find the whole electric car thing very fascinating as this is by far the most plausible substitute for fossil fuels.
And as battery technology is really taking off, as a result of the huge increase in mobile electronics, laptop computers in particular, the one major drawback of electric motoring the range/recharge time , has been reduced alot.

If anybody has an interest in this subject, the recent documentary "who killed the electric car" is a good place to start... 

[macaroni]

I have to disagree. This forum is open to reasoned debate after all.

I see absolutely no benefit to driving electric cars; they move the source of pollution to power stations, and given the amount of cars of the road, power stations will be sorely taxed.
Even high-end laptops don't have very long battery lives and they have to power is some silicon chips and a fan. A decent diesel car can go well over 700miles on a single £50 tankful of fuel; no electric car on the planet can do anything like that coupled with decent performance.

I also see no driving pleasure in a silent car. You, of all people Krede, should know the pleasure to be had from twin dellortos barking behind your head!

Having said all that, I can't offer a better alternative for fossil fuels, but the thought of electric cars fills me with dread.

I think I'll go and listen to "Red Barchetta" by Rush and remind myself what a terrifying vision of the future electric cars are!

[Anders Dinsen]

Macaroni, you are right. Batteries are also heavy energy consumers, in the car because they are inefficient and heavy, and on the factory because they take a lot of power to manufacture. And after use it takes energy to get them disposed safely. And battery technology is really progressing slowly.

But electric cars may become popular when electricity can be produced by fusion power. We've been talking about that for 50 years+ now, but maybe in 100 years we will have it. That will offer humanity unlimited amounts of virtually cost free energy (except for the initial costs of building power plants).

At the moment the most research for road cars seems to be centered about more efficient engine technology through better engine management and super charging, hybrid technology to reduce local pollution in heavily traffic'ed areas, regenerative braking, and hydrogen powered cars. "Green" diesel fuel is also said to be CO2 neutral.

An electric converted Murena was offered for sale on eBay some years ago. I think it was italian...

- Anders

[macaroni]

All good points Anders, but don't get me started on Hybrid cars. They are the worst of both worlds a crappy electric motor and a small petrol engine.

As fot that monstrosity, the Toyota Prius, they should be banned for being an eyesore.

Anyway, we digress from the Galvanising topic. I'll gladly start an "electric cars are evil" thread.

[Anders Dinsen]

Anyway, we digress from the Galvanising topic. I'll gladly start an "electric cars are evil" thread.

Good point! I've split the topic, but tried to be politically correct regarding title

I actually find the Prius quite appealing. I've never driven one though. Have you?

- Anders

[Lennart Sorth]

I actually find the Prius quite appealing. I've never driven one though. Have you?

You must be joking?!

It hardly does over 45mpg in real life, and any modern diesel will do that.
Besides, all those high tech materials makes the car much less environmenatlly viable than even a Hummer : http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/print_item.asp?NewsID=188

One of my friends has Prius, it drives just as any other car, BUT it is allowed to enter central London without having to pay that ridiculous "stay-out" tax, which it the only reason he bought it

But you're right - we'd better split the topic

[Anders Dinsen]

I actually find the Prius quite appealing. I've never driven one though. Have you?

You must be joking?!

No!
And then it has a big display on the dash showing all sorts of weird technical stuff. I love that & it's the future!

- Anders

[macaroni]

I sincerely hope the Prius is not the future, but just another example of Japanese dead-end engineering ( a la 4 wheel steer, rotary engines etc). I mean, the Lexus RX400h, what is that all about, please??

I'm with Lennart on this one, in real world driving, it has been proved many times that a small diesel is more economical and faster than the Prius. I suspect, with the particle filter, the Peugeot hdi engine is as clean too.

I've said, for many years, if the Japs put their energies into helping develop the diesel engine, instead of their daft attempts to improve the petrol engine (stratified charge, hybrids etc), it would be a viable near future alternative to petrol.

While I'm on a roll... I'm reminded of that stupid advert for the Honda diesel engine "hate something, make it better". No, you just jumped on the bandwagon and made a class-competitve engine on the back of everyone elses innovation and development. Typical Japanese...

Phew, that's better, rant over.

[Lennart Sorth]

I sincerely hope the Prius is not the future

unfortunately, as long as we let the world be governed by ridiculous political correct people, who come up with ideas as inner-city so-called "congestion-charges", cars like the Prius will be the future. And the rest of us will drive real cars ... in the countryside, with 27 catalythic converters, and a pillow to remove that last exhaust sound - and probably even restricted to 20 mph...

Japanese dead-end engineering ( a la 4 wheel steer, rotary engines etc).

I absolutely adore these wild attempts on progress. Mind you, according to Darwinism, progress only occurs because of freak mutations, some of which turn up to be a good idea, others are not and disappear.

I still love rotary engines, and keep hoping for someone to come up with a fuel-economic version. It is SO much more logical approach to convert fuel into rotation, than having pistons running up and down, constantly changing direction, wasting energy in the acceleration process.

I know of another rotary concept which allegedly was very promising - using off-center cylinders, with sliding separations between chambers (see my crude  drawing). Apparently such a design held some promising features - higher torque, less problems with seals etc - BUT, the entire design was bought by GM, who put it in "storage", where it has been ever since. (it was at about the same time as the Wankel engine).

With the Wankel engine, Genie DID come out of the bottle, no big company (with large investments in piston-engines to protect) managed to stop it. I have high respect for NSU/VW for their attempt, and admire the Japanese for actually trying to improve it. I feel pretty sure that if all manufacturers had adopted the idea, we would have seen more improvement. As it is, Mazda can only spend a limited amount of money developing it.

4 wheel steering has proven to be very good for trucks/busses, and IMO it still holds potential. After all, it is not a fundamental law of physics that a car has 4 wheels, and only the front ones steer.

The Tesla car really is quite promising. NOT from an environmental point of view, as it will probably fal into the same category as the Prius in the "all-things-considered" overview : http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/print_item.asp?NewsID=188
however, the performance specs are appealing, and it doesn't hurt basing the design on an Elise

Some years ago I read an article about a new type of batteries, which could be shaped into any shape you liked (i.e. fill up the chassis), and more importantly flash-charged. An absolutely scary amount of Amps floating into it in a very short time - under some sort of control. It meant that a battery could be fully charged 1000 times faster than it discharged.

However, the electrical powergrid will need substancial upgrading before we can all charge our cars - even if we (all) do it over the night.

So to be kind to the electrical grid and powerstations, I will offer my services by continuing running my car on petrol. 

/Lennart

[krede]

Riiiight... Guess I sort of started this electric car discussion.. so. I will share my views on the subject

For a start, I too, have disregarded electric vehicles (hence forward referred to as ev's) as too short range, too unpractical, too slow etc..
Again I urge anybody who takes an interest in this subject to see the movie "who killed the electric car"..as it delivers some basic facts in such a way that even the Americans can understand them.. and is a good starting point for a debate...also...why not check out the tesla, and EV1 as well ?
 
The Tesla roadster, and to a lesser extend the gm EV1 was the cars that made me re evaluate my view of ev's, and read a bit up on the subject, as these are the first ev's that comes within acceptable performance figures.. though be it both 2 seater light cars, and thus not a real alternative to the 4 door family station wagon.

But may main concern is the civilized world's complete and utter dependence of Arab oil, the suffering brought upon the middle east because of it, and the sickening western hypocrisy involved in acquiring it. 

Now this is again a completely different discussion,involving both politics and and ethics.. that don't really belong in a technical forum such as this, so I will leave it, just noting that I myself spend 6 months in Basra last year, and find that the price for oil is simply too high.... and the sooner we find an alternative fuel and get out of the pockets of the sheiks.. the better.
Also...I will boldly claim that Anyone, with just a minimal measure of common sense, that has seen Kuwait, with its thousands of oil wells, from an airplane will HAVE to agree! that oil as we know it is a crude, wasteful unsustainable way of powering our society, and that we have to do better in the future.

Well.. pretty harsh words from me.. as I'm a huge petrol head myself...but maybe I am growing up..... EEEEWW!

Right.. so back to the topic.. witch should really be : "what alternatives do we have to petrol.. AS OF THIS VERY MOMENT" (lets say.. if the oil ran out tomorrow)
With the emphasis here being more about technical solutions,then the cost savings, or saving the environment..(though the last two would of cause be desirable as well)   
As I see it.. we have 3 choices.

1) Bio diesel
2) Hybrids
3) Electric cars.

I have attended a course in how to convert an ordinary diesel banger, to run on vegetable oil.. and I must admit that had I been driving a diesel then, I would be driving on the stuff today.
Its really the perfect alternative fuel at the moment, with the boom in powerful turbo diesel engined cars we have seen recently.
Its "somewhat" eco friendly with the diesels higher mileage, and the plants co2 neutrality.
Also the western countries have the best agricultural technology the world have ever seen, and it would create employment for a huge number of people.
Think about what this could do for the "new" countries in the EU, who are far behind industrially, but have plenty of farmland?...
Still... in the long run, fuel is still being burned.. and energy wasted by doing so.. and even with the claimed co2 neutrality there will still be pollution from the exhaust.. and from the farming.
And.... on the bottom line.. there isn't enough farming capacity to completely replace petrol.. but its a very very good way to start if you ask me.

2) Hybrids!! yahh I know what you think they all suck!.. and.. well.. I agree.
The hybrid cars for sale today are really just prototypes wrapped up and shipped to the consumers, to have something to show for 17 yeas of failed American  environmental policy.
Macaroni!.. If you want to blame somebody for the prius.. (and BOY don't we all? ) blame the right people.. not the Japanese.. but the Americans!
The Prius was build as a response to the legislations imposed in the 80-90'ies upon the car industry in the US (California I particular ) that a certain percentage of cars should be zero, or low emission.
The Japanese didn't want to be left behind, so the set out and constructed a hybrid car of their own..
Of cause the Motor lobby in the US eventually got the laws withdrawn, and thus left Toyota and co with there pants down.. and a freak of a car that for all practical purposes is inferiour to any modern diesel, in every way.
I found it a bit of a mystery that Toyota had not used a diesel engine in their hybrid, until I found out that the Prius isn't their best effort in making an environmentally friendly car, but is really just an attempt to fill in a spot on the American marked... where NO ONE! drives a diesel, unless its a heavy truck.
There are in fact quite a few hybrid cars on the road in the us, none of witch can match the fuel economy of a modern diesel.

Now.. before anybody write off the hybrid, one can actually make the point that they ARE the cars for the future... well at least the near future... in the way that They are the bridge between the two opposites.. pure petrol and pure electrical cars.
The latest trend amongst the tree hugging motorists are "plug in hybrids"... the type of car, that to me, makes the most sense at the moment.
What it is, is basically a hybrid with the battery capacity increased as much as possibly, that you recharge at your home and use as an EV because you JUST cant get yourself to leap at a true EV... you still want that security that you can keep going for as long as you like without having to worry that you run out of juice....but in the end the engine will hardly ever see any use.. its there as a back up!... and NOT! as a means of charging the batteries.. witch is really the downfall for the "normal" hybrids all together.


   





     
       

 



 

[krede]

3) True Electric cars.
As things are today, everything considered, I would probably go for a "plug in" hybrid myself... SHOULD I choose.. (but one with a diesel engine running on bio  fuel.. obviously)
The use of an EV today is either recreational (Tesla roadster) , or commuting (EV1 type cars).
As mentioned earlier an ev cannot replace the ford modeo or the wv passat, as the main vehicle of the family.. yet.
But.. as car nr 2? ... I think it would be perfect... However price is the concern today, as nobody (myself included) will pay the same for an electric car with its restrictions, as for a normal petrol one.
Now.. I know that there are several issues that need addressing before everybody runs out an buys EV's .

First.. you need places to recharge... and means of paying for it.
Apart from getting people to think a bit "out of the box" this WOULD be quite easy.... with you, in some stores, being able to pay your grocery bill with your mobile phone, it should be a simple matter to pay for the kwh you draw in a similar way.
 
Second.. As for the environment, and oil independence.. as long as long as the power going into the car is made by burning coal or oil.. you are back to square 1.
Only gain would be, that a centralized power plant it bound to be both more efficient and clean then thousands of smaller ones (petrol engines).
Anders you mentioned fusion power... that would be a nice thing to have.. but as you rightly point out.. there has been talk of this for 50+ years, and we haven't come even close to a workable fusion plant.
But whats wrong with other types of renewable energy? wind power not good enough for ya?
take a look at this: http://www.danskenergi.dk/Indblik/Bilerogel.aspx

This bit in particular :
 

Med en personbilpark bestående af 1,9 millioner af de nyeste elbiler, vil det årlige forbrug være cirka 3,8 mio. MWh.

Det svarer cirka til, hvad en 1.000 MW havvindmøllepark eller 500 styk 2 MW havbaserede vindmøller kan producere ved en gennemsnitlig årlig produktionstid på 3.800 timer per vindmølle. Samtidigt svarer det til cirka en tredjedel mere end den nuværende vindmølle kapacitet på. ca. 3.200 MW – eller en tredjedel af regeringens mål for udbygningen til 6.300 MW inden 2025, siger Jørgen Horstmann til El & Energi.

For the "non-Danes" it says something to the effect, that to run 1.9 million cars on electricity you would need 500  2megawatt windmills.
Of cause this has to be rather optimistic figures, and the cars needed to be state of the art ev's.. but it gets you thinking about the feasabillity of it all... even without fusion power.
And again.. windmills you say? .. I believe we make a few of those somewhere in Denmark don't we? .. quite good at it too eh? (until GE buys it all and shuts it down)

And third...
Well.. here comes the environment anyway.
I work with cars and trucks every day as a mechanic.
And just about EVERYTHING that goes into an engine is in major or minor way TOXIC..
And guess what ... so is everything coming out.
Now.. led acid batteries are not the stuff you would let your children play with in the back yard.
But I'm convinced that manufacturing and subsequently disposing/recycling batteries is a laughing matter if put next to the huge resources needed to extract refine transport and distribute oil/petrol , and every other product needed to keep an internal combustion car running.
Then think of  all the people that wont come into contact with the the health dangerous products as part of car maintenance and repair. (me for one).
Spending you days drenched in diesel or worse simply cant be a good thing.

And finally.. the joker... the recent "holy grail" of the motor industry..
Dramatic pause...
...
...The fuel cell!!.. (woooooohhhhhh)

In short... I think its what we in Denmark calls "a duck"... or.. its a con.
Never gonna happen!... and if it does, it will be, long after any currently posting on this forum has lost the ability to drive a car.
How long since we first heard about the fuel cell? 20 years?... 25?..
How long since we saw the first hydrogen powered fuel cell car?.. 15 years?..
Can anybody please show me a motor company that has an actual release date, or even the slightest idea of when they will have a working hydrogen car on the market?... or if they know for sure that the technology WILL ACTUALLY WORK!? as a practical means of powering a car?.
None I can think of has actually  made any such claims.
And even IF the fuel cell becomes an every day reality (and I for one am certain that it never will).
You will still need to use 5 times as much energy driving a hydrogen car, as you would an ordinary electric car.. ASSUMING that the ev's doesn't improve AT ALL from their current state of efficiency.
And in effect the fuel cell car IS just an electric car with an on board hydrogen powerplant... a bit of an overkill if you ask me..