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Author Topic: Poor Fuel Economy and Missing Pieces of a Puzzle  (Read 10651 times)
Mr. D
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« on: October 25, 2007, 08:01:12 pm »

Hey Guys I have been having a major fuel economy problem on an Espace I recently bought. I've checked for any leaks but haven't found any and the exhaust doesn't spit out fuel either.

My car is a 2.2L Petrol Automatic J63 Espace Champs de Elysee model with fuel injection.

When I popped open the bonnet I found a Tube and power wire that seemed to go nowhere. Below are the pictures I have taken to make to make it easier to help with my problem:

[Click on the Image for a Bigger Image]
1. The wire that connects to nothing.


1.1 The Wire comes out of the same line as the Injector power supplies, all the Injector have their power supplies, Where does this one go?


2. The tube that goes nowhere:


2.1a The tube that goes nowhere comes out of the injector unit from the highlighted region:

2.1b Close up:


The black tube has suction, and when I block it with my finger the revs go to normal. So to keep the revs normal I have somewhat temporarily blocked the tube; This is shown below:

2.2a I passed it through the ball like thing:

2.2b And now it fits like this:


I know there are great minds who come to this forum, please help me. Where does this Tube and Wire go to? Could it be the cause of my awful fuel economy? Is there any other procedure you can suggest so I can improve the fuel economy of my vehicle. At the moment I'm getting around 60miles with £20 of petrol thats 60 miles to 20 Litres, appauling I tell ya lol.

And oh yes, I have another question related to my Automatic gearbox:

3. C or S? I have no Idea what they're for, I mostly do city driving and seldomnly go on the motorway:


Please Help me out Brethren.

Thanks in Advance,

Dhruv.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 08:12:23 pm by Mr. D » Logged
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2007, 05:18:40 pm »

Welcome to the forum. I only have time for a quick reply, though!

I think the connector without its mate should go on the pinking detector on the cylinder head, just below the inlet manifold. It's difficult to spot, but try.

The hose may be one that goes to the injection computer housing where there is a MAP sensor. It could be cut. Try following the hose back from there to see.

I have no idea what the switch is for as I've never seen an automatic espace of this generation Wink

Good luck!

- Anders Cool
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Mr. D
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« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2007, 06:57:57 pm »

Hey Anders, I found out where the hose goes, it conencts to one of two ports on the rocker cover. The stupid ac system was blocking my view lol. But the wire is a problem, I check to see if the pinking sensor had a wire connect unfortunately it had a wire connected. So the question is where does it go? lol

Thankyou Anders
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2007, 11:19:14 pm »

Hey Anders, I found out where the hose goes, it conencts to one of two ports on the rocker cover. The stupid ac system was blocking my view lol. But the wire is a problem, I check to see if the pinking sensor had a wire connect unfortunately it had a wire connected. So the question is where does it go? lol

Haha, yes where should it go...? ok it looks like a two way connector on the photo, so if its not for one of the injectors, and not the pinking sensor either, there's only one sensor left in that vicinity - the air temperature sensor. It sits in the piece of hose going from the air filter to the throttle.

- Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Mr. D
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« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2007, 05:18:28 am »

Hey Brethren's, I drove my car around this weekend and I think I've uncovered the underlying problem for the poor fuel economy. The Automatic Transmission, I think I have a AR4 gearbox (I think lol) and when i'm setting off the gear change from 1st to 2nd happens normally I think but 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th are a bit Iffy, I noticed that 4th gear comes into action at about 40mph, Is that Normal?

I think the ATF needs replacing, what do you think? Or is it some electronic control problem, where i need to get a new transfer function programmed in. It's understandable how this car can pass the M.O.T. But not very practical is it? When you doing City driving in 2nd gear lol.

Is there a way to get early gear changes?
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2007, 08:30:11 am »

I think the ATF needs replacing, what do you think? Or is it some electronic control problem, where i need to get a new transfer function programmed in. It's understandable how this car can pass the M.O.T. But not very practical is it? When you doing City driving in 2nd gear lol.

I don't think your gearbox is an AR4, which was used in Laguna as far as I have been able to find out. Laguna has the engine fitted transversally. AFAIK the gearboxes used on the J63's are Audi boxes, but I don't know for sure.

It doesn't sound right that city driving happens in 2nd. I think you are right in suspecting the autobox. Incidentially, I have a neighbor with an early 90's Audi 80 who replaced both engine and gearbox from a donor car recently.

- Anders



- Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Martin Tyas
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Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2007, 12:31:44 pm »

I don't think your gearbox is an AR4,

According to Page 5 of the attached technical note on recommended gearbox oils it suggests that a J63 with auto should have an AR4 transmission Anders.... unless of course the technical bulletin is wrong... and it certainly has me confused.
I have a leak from the right hand drive shaft oil seal and have been trying to find out which oil it should have put back in after I've replaced the seal.
The driver's manual for a JE0 says Tranself TRX 75w 80.
The parts guy at my local Renault dealer says they only use Tranself TRJ 75w 80 for all transmissions
The technical note says Tranself TRP 75w 80... unless the gearbox has single cone synchronisers and then it should have TRZ 75w 80.

So who knows???.... not even Renault by the looks of it  Huh

Martin
« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 02:46:33 pm by Martin Tyas » Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2007, 04:43:03 pm »

I don't think your gearbox is an AR4,

According to Page 5 of the attached technical note on recommended gearbox oils it suggests that a J63 with auto should have an AR4 transmission Anders.... unless of course the technical bulletin is wrong... and it certainly has me confused.

Well in any case noone should count on me "thinking" anything Wink I don't know.

Quote
I have a leak from the right hand drive shaft oil seal and have been trying to find out which oil it should have put back in after I've replaced the seal.
The driver's manual for a JE0 says Tranself TRX 75w 80.
The parts guy at my local Renault dealer says they only use Tranself TRJ 75w 80 for all transmissions
The technical note says Tranself TRP 75w 80... unless the gearbox has single cone synchronisers and then it should have TRZ 75w 80.

So who knows???.... not even Renault by the looks of it  Huh

Martin

It's a manual gearbox... then I personally wouldn't worry much about which oil spec to use, as long as the viscosity spec is right and the quality is the best (synthetic) available. But as I have no idea what the letters mean, I can't say for sure...

- Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Mr. D
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« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2007, 05:26:48 pm »

I'll try changing the ATF, Where do I get Renaultmatic d2 from? Then again if its something else It's gonna be costly...Should I go to a Renault dealer or a Auto specialist?
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Martin Tyas
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Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2007, 05:42:57 pm »

It's a manual gearbox... then I personally wouldn't worry much about which oil spec to use, as long as the viscosity spec is right and the quality is the best (synthetic) available. But as I have no idea what the letters mean, I can't say for sure...

- Anders

In general I agree Anders that using the best quality oil is the best policy.... however, these modern synthetic oils have additives to perform certain duties... some are intended for use specifically with transmissions that have molybdenum coated synchro cones and others are for use with gearboxes having brass synchros. Get it wrong and you could have an expensive repair bill because some additives are not compatible with brass synchros.

In the meantime I have being doing further research.

Tranself TRJ is a semi-synthetic for use in J series gearboxes that are in such as the Twingo, Clio, Megane, Kangoo, Laguna (except 2.2 DT or dCi or the V6) and Espace 2.0 and 1.9dti..... so although it gets used in many different Renault vehicles it is not for ALL Renault gearboxes as the parts guy suggested.

Tranself TRP is a fully synthetic for use in P series gearboxes such as the PK6 having brass single or multi cone synchros.

Tranself TRX is again fully synthetic and classed as a "Super High Performance" oil for use in JB, JC, PK (1, 6, 7, 9) and PF series transmissions in cars and any P series fitted in vans

Tranself TRZ is also fully synthetic for transverse gearboxes having molybdenum coated synchros and is specifically excluded from use in longitudinal boxes having helical-tapered drive trains or boxes fitted with brass synchros.

There are also other "flavours" of Tranself available such as TRT for specific gearboxes... in the case of TRT for the JR5 box in the stretched Scenic.
Renault sure don't make things easy.

It would seem that TRX is the best spec for the PK1 fitted to my Espace but it could need TRZ if it has moly coated synchros.... there is a code stamped on to the gearbox that I have to check first.

At least I am getting somewhere but the bad news is that the oil is £15 (over 21 Euro) per litre from Renault and I need 3 litres.
So far I haven't found what I could be sure to be a direct equivalent from the likes of Castrol.

Sorry for partially sidetracking your thread Mr D.... but back to your issue... if you look down to Page 6 of the technical note it shows that Renaultmatic D2 is a Dextron IID standard oil so there are likely to be a good few equivalent ATF's for you to choose from that meet that standard... and will be cheaper than going to Renault if the price of their synthetic manual gearbox oil is anything to go by. Also if you Google "AR4 gearbox" it seems that it does have some coverage within other Renault forums in the UK that may also be of help.
Most main dealers don't touch auto boxes... they take them out of the vehicle, take them to an automatic transmission specialist and then refit the box when it's been repaired..... so cut out the middle man  Wink

Martin
« Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 03:22:11 pm by Martin Tyas » Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Mr. D
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Posts: 7


« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2007, 08:39:47 pm »

I think I need a XR25 clip (or what ever one is compatible?), Is there any system I can use on this car for diagnosis through my laptop and is it OBD compatible?

Any recommendations on a multi purpose tool? I hate it when I am new to a particular type of car lol I have never owned a Renault before and seriously It aint exactly a Rover lol.

What price range am I looking at?
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Martin Tyas
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Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2007, 12:25:29 am »

A genuine but used full Renault dealer system just sold on ebay.co.uk for over £2500 and a basic system (Easy Clip) sold for £770 last week. Compatibles (Chinese imports) of the Easy Clip are between £1700 and £2000 new.
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Mr. D
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Posts: 7


« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2007, 12:29:19 am »

LOL, I got the car for £675....i'm better off going to a dealer lol.
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renaultbiler
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« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2007, 08:44:16 pm »

Not that it matters, just feel to correct the CLIP issues.

The EasyClip is not a full scale tool but a simplified PDA version primary made to ease final setup on new cars (Tyre press., Xenon adj., lang., etc). EasyClip is also CAN protocol only so it will not connect on cars below Laguna II, Megane II etc. (do not mix with the JE CAN bus as that is internal only and is not provided as CAN on the diagnostic functions). EasyClip also updates through the CLIP (described below) so you wont get it updated unless you have the full package.

The CLIP is the full scale tool and basically all you need is the CAN interface + CLIP software on a laptop. Can interface is ISO and CAN protocols and will work on all cars from mid 90's. But my old J637 (1993) requires the XR25 as my CLIP wont recognize the ECU. But my XR25 works like a charm on it.
The CLIP is available as Technic package wich means you get a scope etc. (Physical measurements) + a lot of special cables, connectors, current clamps and adaptors (++) to perform various diagnostics on car and components. The Comfort package offers a table, printer etc. So a CLIP Comfort Technic means all gadgets.
Also note that the early CLIP box was delivered without the CAN sonde but have cables for the internal electronics found under the laptop. That is not CAN compatible and does not work on Laguna II, Megane II and on...

The XR25 is the old diagnostic machine and works on most models upto 2000/2001. This is a standalone box without any computer software.

The "China"-CAN interface is supposed to work like the original CAN. But i notice that occaisonally my original CAN sonde is updated after CLIP software update. This means that when i upgrade my CLIP and connects it to a car sometimes it starts with updating the pheripal device (the CAN sonde). If the China CAN will do this is unknown to me - but if it doesnt have that ability it will likely become unuseable at one stage. So it is a lot of cash for a pirate interface.

« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 08:56:15 pm by renaultbiler » Logged

1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
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Mr. D
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« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2007, 09:10:54 pm »

Hey Guys,

I sent my car for diagnostic and tuning today, they found a fault with the Coolant temperature sensor. They replaced it...re-did the diagnostic and everything came up fine.

The guy at the place told me that due to the sensor being faulty the ecu always thought the car was cold and therefore was under choke continuously. He said my car is running fine now. My question to you guys is....Can a faulty Coolant Temperature Sensor result in very poor fuel economy (55miles to 20L)?

They weren't able to drive test it because my tax had run out (the new  tax disc was in the glove compartment) but if the problem persists I'll take it back lol.

So what is you opinion guys?
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