| Home  Blogs Help Search Login Register  
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Print
Author Topic: New Piper 2.2 Camshaft  (Read 2867 times)
roy4matra
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1051



« on: February 11, 2016, 12:02:09 pm »

I am rebuilding a Murena 2.2 engine at the moment and since the camshaft has a couple of lobes badly worn, (not uncommon as we know!) I will need another cam.  I could have looked for a good second hand one, but these are rare and likely to be costly and you are never sure how good they are going to be.  I could have gone to Simon or Politechnic but again they are expensive and there is also the large postage to take into account too.  So I am getting some brand new cams made by Piper Camshafts in Kent.

They will make these new from blank billets and since they are starting from a blank, the cam profile can also be whatever I choose.  Now for a road car, I have always been happy with the Holbay 58C profile (more commonly known as the Tornado) which brings the standard cam up to roughly 'S' performance.  In fact in my experience it is better, and this is, I speculate, due to the wider timing with 296 degrees valve period rather than the 279 degrees that the 'S' has.  However, the Holbay 58C did not have as much valve lift as the 'S' and we know the 'S' uses standard valve springs without any problems, so I believe the Holbay profile could be improved further without needing different valve springs, or compromising the drivability or fuel consumption.  My plan is to have these new cams made with a similar profile to the Holbay 58C but with a similar lift to the 'S' which should improve the power level further.  As Piper are well versed with cams and profiles they are looking into this for me and will tell me what they finally recommend.

Obviously the cams will not be cheap as they are being made to order, but they will be brand new, using modern material and technology and ideal case hardening and should be better all round.  As a one-off, the cam would have been around £1600 plus tax, but by having a few made I can get that cost down, and so I have asked for three (one for the engine I'm rebuilding for a customer, one for me, and one for another club member) and the cost will be just over £1,000 including VAT.

If there is anyone on the forum that would like one of these cams I'm sure they would do more and the unit cost could come down a bit more, but they have to be all done together for this saving.  So if anyone wants one, they need to commit now with a £250 deposit and I will confirm the numbers with Piper.  They are busy at this time (probably with new racing season work) so the cams may take as much as four months before they are ready.

Regarding the oversize pistons for these engines, some time ago I thought the price was too high and even a supplier here thought he could do much better, so I asked if anyone was interested in new pistons once I got a costing.  In the end the supplier did not even get back to me obviously as he never did get a better price, and I then checked out a few companies myself both in the U.K. and the States, and none of them could come up with a better price than Simon Auto, so I eventually bought some from him.

Roy
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 12:26:44 pm by roy4matra » Logged

GP
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 265



« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2016, 09:04:10 am »

Hi y'all
This is a pretty special opportunity to obtain a brand new cam shaft with a new profile.
I've been helping out people over the years with used cams, but now I've reached the stage where I need to look after my future requirements, so I have paid my deposit and watched the price drop substantially!
Roy is going to a lot of effort on this project, so if I were you I would recommend to take advantage of this and seriously think about placing an order with him, then we can all win on price.

Pip Pip,

Graham

UPDATE: TOO LATE, THE ORDER AND DEPOSITS ARE IN.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 07:59:19 pm by GP » Logged
Patrick Bulten
Newbie
*
Posts: 3


« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2020, 11:36:15 am »

Hello Graham,

I was wondering how it goes with youre new camshaft? is it better dan a normal Holbay58C profile?
I bought last week a pair of solex c40 addhe carbs, but i saw that it only work with a other cam.
I have on my murena a 4 in 1 exhuist system and i want to make a alu airbox witch a cold air intak frome below.

Now i was wondering which cam profile is the best with my setup and do you have the information about it for me so that ik can ask companies of that is posiible to make, by grinding welding up en grinding the right profile. 

Another question is what nozzles en venturi's do i have to put in de carbs.

Thanks

Patrick
Logged
roy4matra
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1051



« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2020, 07:47:02 pm »

Hello Graham,

I was wondering how it goes with youre new camshaft? is it better dan a normal Holbay58C profile?

Whilst Graham will no doubt answer you in due course Patrick, I know he has not fitted his yet but the Piper cam will definitely be much better than the Holbay 58C fast road profile, since I made sure it would be when I asked Piper to produce the cams for us.

The Holbay fast road cam profile is good, but only had 7.06mm cam lift whereas the Piper has 8.3mm cam lift (which is even more than the Murena 'S' cam - 7.4mm) and it has even wider opening periods of around 300 degrees (exact spec: 298 from 10 thou after opening to 10 thou before closing) compared to 296 degrees for the 58C and only 279 for the 'S'.

The only Murena on the road with the Piper cam at this moment is Colin's which has proven to be really good, and sounds great too. (see: https://youtu.be/SshUuzQe3-s and this was only shortly after the rebuild and not using full revs)  I have built the second for Ian but the rest of his car is having work done so it has not been run yet.  I am building my own engine at the moment with the third Piper cam and Graham's will be the last of the four a little later.

Quote
I bought last week a pair of solex c40 addhe carbs, but i saw that it only work with a other cam.

If these twin Solex 40 ADDHE were set up for a Murena 'S' or Prep 142, then they will not be much use for the Piper cam, but like any of these twin side-draught carbs. they can be set up for many engine configurations simply by changing venturis, and jets.  If your carbs. were not from a Murena, they may have come off an Alfa and since they had a smaller capacity, they may be even set up for a lower air volume.  The Murena Solex carbs. had 34mm venturis where as the Piper will not give its best unless the venturis are at least 36 or 37mm.

So the first thing is to know exactly to what specifications your Solex are set.

Roy
« Last Edit: February 20, 2020, 08:05:38 pm by roy4matra » Logged

GP
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 265



« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2020, 07:06:12 pm »

Hi Patrick,

Roy has answered your question. He is correct that I have not fitted mine yet.

Good luck with your project anyway.

Graham
Logged
Patrick Bulten
Newbie
*
Posts: 3


« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2020, 08:40:44 am »

Hello Graham,

I was wondering how it goes with youre new camshaft? is it better dan a normal Holbay58C profile?

Whilst Graham will no doubt answer you in due course Patrick, I know he has not fitted his yet but the Piper cam will definitely be much better than the Holbay 58C fast road profile, since I made sure it would be when I asked Piper to produce the cams for us.

The Holbay fast road cam profile is good, but only had 7.06mm cam lift whereas the Piper has 8.3mm cam lift (which is even more than the Murena 'S' cam - 7.4mm) and it has even wider opening periods of around 300 degrees (exact spec: 298 from 10 thou after opening to 10 thou before closing) compared to 296 degrees for the 58C and only 279 for the 'S'.

The only Murena on the road with the Piper cam at this moment is Colin's which has proven to be really good, and sounds great too. (see: https://youtu.be/SshUuzQe3-s and this was only shortly after the rebuild and not using full revs)  I have built the second for Ian but the rest of his car is having work done so it has not been run yet.  I am building my own engine at the moment with the third Piper cam and Graham's will be the last of the four a little later.

Quote
I bought last week a pair of solex c40 addhe carbs, but i saw that it only work with a other cam.

If these twin Solex 40 ADDHE were set up for a Murena 'S' or Prep 142, then they will not be much use for the Piper cam, but like any of these twin side-draught carbs. they can be set up for many engine configurations simply by changing venturis, and jets.  If your carbs. were not from a Murena, they may have come off an Alfa and since they had a smaller capacity, they may be even set up for a lower air volume.  The Murena Solex carbs. had 34mm venturis where as the Piper will not give its best unless the venturis are at least 36 or 37mm.

So the first thing is to know exactly to what specifications your Solex are set.

Roy

Thank you for your anser! The solex carb are not from a Murena S so i have to look what is inside de carb. I found also this on the forum about adjustment of the carb

have kept a record of all my tuning and experiments, and here are the jets and venturis I'm running now on my 40 DCOE's with Holbay cam and standard 2.2 head:

Summer   Winter
Venturi   36   36
Aux   4.5   4.5
Idle jets   45F9   45F9
Idle Screws (L to R)   5/8   5/8
Main jets   130   135
Emulsion tubes   F9   F9
Air correctors   200   200
Float level (mm)      7.5   7.5
Fuel  press (bar)      0.15   0.15
Pump jet   45   45
Pump bleed   40   40
Static idle adv (deg)   15   15
   
Good luck!
   
/Anders

So if i changes the jets to and venturi to this is would be work? Or is the difference of weber and solex differrence for setup.

And how many horsepower wil i get with this setup and a piper cam and a 4 in 1 exhaust?
Logged
roy4matra
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1051



« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2020, 10:49:25 am »


Thank you for your anser! The solex carb are not from a Murena S so i have to look what is inside de carb. I found also this on the forum about adjustment of the carb

Quote
A reply from Anders Dinsen...

I have kept a record of all my tuning and experiments, and here are the jets and venturis I'm running now on my 40 DCOE's with Holbay cam and standard 2.2 head:

Summer   Winter
Venturi   36   36
Aux   4.5   4.5
Idle jets   45F9   45F9
Idle Screws (L to R)   5/8   5/8
Main jets   130   135
Emulsion tubes   F9   F9
Air correctors   200   200
Float level (mm)      7.5   7.5
Fuel  press (bar)      0.15   0.15
Pump jet   45   45
Pump bleed   40   40
Static idle adv (deg)   15   15
  
Good luck!
  
/Anders

So if i changes the jets to and venturi to this is would be work? Or is the difference of weber and solex differrence for setup.

And how many horsepower wil i get with this setup and a piper cam and a 4 in 1 exhaust?

First Patrick, you cannot translate exactly between Weber DCOE and Solex ADDHE carburettors,, because of their different designs, but you could use those settings as a starting point for setting up the Solex carbs.

However, that set up which Anders has provided is for the Holbay 58C cam re-profile, and the Piper 3777 cam is very different, so that set up will NOT be correct for setting your Solex to suit the Piper cam.  I would also say that in all likelihood you will need 45 size carburettors to get the best out of the Piper so your Solex 40's are too small.

As for power output, the only way to set up any twin side-draught carburettors properly is to do it on a rolling road, and you can also take the power readings at the same time.  I would expect that with twin 45's and 38mm venturis and the optimum set up, the power output might be in the region of 160 bhp. (which is a substantial increase from the true 134 bhp that a Murena 'S' gave)

One further question Patrick.  The carburettors should have a small aluminium tag with a coding on them.  Can you please let me know what that coding is, thanks.

Roy
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 04:19:50 pm by roy4matra » Logged

Patrick Bulten
Newbie
*
Posts: 3


« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2020, 02:35:01 pm »

Hello Roy,

Sorry for my late replay, i have found the coding numbers on the carb

116.78.04
011.02

Patrick
Logged
roy4matra
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1051



« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2020, 06:26:47 pm »

Hello Roy,

Sorry for my late replay, i have found the coding numbers on the carb

116.78.04
011.02

Patrick

Thanks.  That is not one that I have any knowledge of, and I can't find any listing for these twin Solex carbs. but I would say it certainly looks like an Alfa Romeo type code, but for which model there is no way to tell.

So the only way I can know how much would need to be altered is to know the exact specification of these ones you have.  As stated previously, I would need to know the Auxiliary venturi size, the venturi size, the main jet, emulsion tube, air correction jet, idle jet, pump jet, needle valve, float weights, etc.  In other words you will need to totally strip them and record all the specifications.  That will give us some idea what size engine they came from maybe, but more important we can see what is likely to need to be changed to suit a tuned Murena.  However, the state of tune will need to be known and in fact the only real way to set them up is on a rolling road.

When you strip them, make sure you have them on a bench with a clean light coloured towel so that any small items that drop out will not bounce or roll away.  Pay particular attention to the pump jet weights, springs and tiny ball bearings as you do not want to damage the delicate spring, nor lose the ball.

Roy
« Last Edit: June 13, 2020, 10:04:32 pm by roy4matra » Logged

Pages: [1] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to: