| Home  Blogs Help Search Login Register  
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Print
Author Topic: Next issue; Not glowing..?  (Read 8585 times)
TheJoker
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 278


WWW
« on: March 18, 2009, 10:19:13 am »

Hi Guys,

Here I was just about to pop another message into the TDC thread saying "the car is doing well, albeit sometimes missing out on starting, but that' usually fixed by turning the key"...

But, no. The other day I was doing some errands in quite good spirit, and the car was running and starting just fine. (I think I need to take the EGR valve out and give it a clean again as it's played up a few times), back on topic. I had done some 4 flawless start-stops during this journey until it came to restart the car and it just would not start. (Funnily I had complained about about the car's reliability to my passenger). I turned the key maybe 10 times and the Glow-Spiral-Icon just didn't show, it went straight into the EKG-Icon. We pointlessly opened the bonnet and poked around a bit, nothing worse than before.  Wink I did turn the engine a bit and it was turning with rapid speed. I was just about to call for assistance for the first time, when I turned the key and it did show the glow-icon. I turned the key, and it didn't start, but I did turned it off and then back on and it was glowing again and this time started.
I didn't dear turn the car off during my journey home. Yesterday I tried to start it and pretty much the same, apart from that I didn't want to run the battery dry when it finally showed the glow icon. So, despite glowing a few times I didn't dare run the starter till it started.

Last time I took it to a garage they did mumble something about the glow plugs:
http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php/topic,1234.0.html

Guys, what's going on..?! Have my glow plugs gone to Espace Heaven..?!  Huh If so, how difficult is it for me to change on the road next to my garage (into which the Espace will not fit).

Thanks!!
Logged

Grand Espace 2.2 dCi 2001 Silver
KTM 990 SuperDuke R Smiley
Dead: BMW K1200R
Martin Tyas
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 278


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2009, 12:12:27 pm »

how difficult is it for me to change on the road next to my garage (into which the Espace will not fit).


They are not that difficult to change, if indeed it is one or more of the glowplugs that have died. I did mine on the drive in about 30 minutes but you will need to remove the air cleaner housing to gain access....  but that's not a big issue because once you've disconnected the pipes either side of the air cleaner the whole unit simply lifts off the rubber bushings it sits on.

You can get glowplugs from Euro Car Parts, GSF or many other motor factors but I got mine on-line from www.sparkplugs.co.uk delivered to the door next day. The ones factory fitted from new to my 2.2dCi were made by Beru that sparkplugs.co.uk can supply but he also has NGK

Martin
Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
TheJoker
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 278


WWW
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2009, 07:12:44 pm »

Thanks for that encouraging info Martin.  Grin

I've been trying to start the car quite a few times to make sure things aren't just random.

So, here's a bit more information.
When I turn the key one of two things happen;
1) The Glow Coils icon shows and I hear the "slurping noise" from under the car as the engine gets glowed and primed with diesel. Followed by the "OK" sign.
2) There's just the dots in the screen for quite a long time, and no noise from under the car, and if this happens it goes straight into the EKG-Error-Icon with the nasty beep.
(In both 1) and 2) the red immobiliser light goes out)

If 2) happens there's no point in turning the key. I can keep on flicking the key until 1) happens, I can hear it early as the car is either silent or I hear the "slurp" noise.

When 1) happens I can turn the key and the car, first time, wants to start, and I think that if I give it a bit of throttle it'll purr up as it should. However, it has stalled several times just after it's fired up.
If it doesn't start at the first few revolutions, it won't start. No matter how long I keep it cranking or what position I have the throttle at (no, a bit or floored.. doesn't matter).
I can keep trying to crank it for a good while, but it just won't fire up.

I have then notice that if I leave the car for a short while (less than a minute) I can go back to it and if I get the "slurp", coil and OK light, then I crank it over and it fires up immediately like nothing was wrong.

I've then, once started, had it running for a while, giving it throttle once in a while, without any problem. It idles just fine, no hunting, no problem. It picks up the rpms as usual, it doesn't smoke. Everything is normal.

Except; earlier today it stalled after about 5 minutes of running with the red engine symbol with 'Stop" written in it. It started up immediately after...  Huh Huh Shocked Roll Eyes

I'm sensing that this might not only be the glow plugs, but maybe something to do with the fuelling...?! High pressure pump, low pressure pump..?!  Huh Huh

Anyone got a clue?
Logged

Grand Espace 2.2 dCi 2001 Silver
KTM 990 SuperDuke R Smiley
Dead: BMW K1200R
Martin Tyas
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 278


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2009, 08:45:29 pm »

If it fires up and then stalls after running a while as it did this morning then it isn't the glowplugs. The glowplugs only assist the engine to spring into life from cold then are just along for the ride once the engine is running. And if the engine runs well once it is running then it's not likely to be the high pressure pump as that simply delivers fuel at 23,000 psi to the common rail from where the fuel is delivered into each cylinder by the injectors and controlled by the injection computer.

The "slurp" from under the car will be the low pressure pump located forward of the fuel tank. With the ignition turned on but without turning the key all the way to start the engine the low pressure pump should run for 30 seconds and then auto cut-off if a continual supply of fuel isn't required by the engine having been started. So it may be worth trying that and checking that the low pressure pump is in fact running and timing how long it operates for. But don't keep doing that continually without leaving it for a few minutes in between otherwise you may need new glowplugs after all because it is possible to fry them from having been up to temperature but not cooled down sufficiently before being energised again.

I'd check the low pressure pump first and the electical connections and circuit to it. If the operation of the low pressure pump is intermittent when you try it with the ignition switched on but engine not started then you could try running a direct feed from the battery to the pump and if the pump then operates normally it suggests a problem with the connections or the wiring to it.

Martin
Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
TheJoker
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 278


WWW
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2009, 11:21:36 am »

If it fires up and then stalls after running a while as it did this morning then it isn't the glowplugs. The glowplugs only assist the engine to spring into life from cold then are just along for the ride once the engine is running.

Yeah, I agree, however, I might not have been clear. It merely fires up and dies. It's more of a promise than actually running.
But, yes, that should indicate that the glow plugs are working, when they're working (i.e I get the glow-coil-icon).

And if the engine runs well once it is running then it's not likely to be the high pressure pump as that simply delivers fuel at 23,000 psi to the common rail from where the fuel is delivered into each cylinder by the injectors and controlled by the injection computer.
That's very true too. But this, again only works when the glow-coil-icon has happened. It just doesn't work otherwise.
It's not like there's a middle ground. I either get the glow-coil-icon and the engine might start, but when I don't get the glow-coil-icon there's no chance the engine starts (I've tried).


The "slurp" from under the car will be the low pressure pump located forward of the fuel tank. With the ignition turned on but without turning the key all the way to start the engine the low pressure pump should run for 30 seconds and then auto cut-off if a continual supply of fuel isn't required by the engine having been started.

When I get the glow-coil-icon this is exactly what happens. However, the engine might still not start, despite having heard the sound (low pressure pump priming).
There's no direct link between sound and starting. Many times it doesn't start despite priming the low pressure circuit. If it was sound = start, then I'd be very much inclined to point straight at the low pressure pump.

So it may be worth trying that and checking that the low pressure pump is in fact running and timing how long it operates for. But don't keep doing that continually without leaving it for a few minutes in between otherwise you may need new glowplugs after all because it is possible to fry them from having been up to temperature but not cooled down sufficiently before being energised again.
Thanks for the warning! Smiley


I'd check the low pressure pump first and the electical connections and circuit to it. If the operation of the low pressure pump is intermittent when you try it with the ignition switched on but engine not started then you could try running a direct feed from the battery to the pump and if the pump then operates normally it suggests a problem with the connections or the wiring to it.

It can't hur to check it.. no scratch that, I'm sure I'll get some bloody knuckles if I do it.  Grin

Still, I'm not really sure that the low pressure pump is the first port of call. The reason for this is simply that I don't feel that there's a direct link between it operating and the car starting.  Huh Roll Eyes
Logged

Grand Espace 2.2 dCi 2001 Silver
KTM 990 SuperDuke R Smiley
Dead: BMW K1200R
roy4matra
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1019



« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2009, 12:39:55 pm »

... Still, I'm not really sure that the low pressure pump is the first port of call. The reason for this is simply that I don't feel that there's a direct link between it operating and the car starting.  Huh Roll Eyes

Don't you believe it!  If this is the common rail diesel i.e. G9T 710, then if the low pressure pump doesn't work the engine won't start.  These engines need 150-200 bar fuel pressure almost instantly just to start.  If the low pressure pump does not work then the high pressure pump cannot build that sort of pressure and the engine doesn't start.

Also a point about glow plugs which I have mentioned before but bears repeating in case you (or anyone else) does change them.  These are long and relatively thin with a taper seat.  If they have been over-tightened previously or been in a long time, they can be difficult to get out and it is not unknown to shear the heads off, which then means the cyl. head usually has to come off to get them out.  If you try to drill them out you usually cannot keep the drill accurately concentric and will ruin the head.  So plenty of releasing agent and take it slow.

When you fit the new ones, lubricate the threads, we had a special white 'cream', and DO NOT tighten more than just a nip.  Remember these are conical seats and should seal straight away.  Anyone that remembers the problems with conical seat spark plugs in Pinto and BL engines will understand - only 10 lb-inches was required.  Once over-tightened they often could not be removed!

Better to under-tighten initially as you can always add a little more.

Roy
Logged

TheJoker
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 278


WWW
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2009, 11:53:00 am »

Roy,

Thank you very much! Especially about tightening the glow plugs. That's very valuable information!

... Still, I'm not really sure that the low pressure pump is the first port of call. The reason for this is simply that I don't feel that there's a direct link between it operating and the car starting.  Huh Roll Eyes

Don't you believe it!  If this is the common rail diesel i.e. G9T 710, then if the low pressure pump doesn't work the engine won't start.  These engines need 150-200 bar fuel pressure almost instantly just to start.  If the low pressure pump does not work then the high pressure pump cannot build that sort of pressure and the engine doesn't start.

I probably didn't make myself clear in my statement. I'm very much aware that the car won't start/run unless the low pressure pump is working. There's a direct link between that. That's for sure.

However, I was more referring to my symptoms. Even if I hear the pump, the car doesn't start.
If I turn the key, then (making numbers up to illustrate a point) 65 times out of 100 I will not get a glow-coil-icon (and no sound from the pump). The other 35 times when I will get a  glow-coil-icon and turn the key 1 time it will splutter and die, and the 33 times it will just crank over without starting and then leave it for about 1 minute and then it starts.

What I'm trying to illustrate is that even if the glow-coil-icon shows up and I hear the pump going (followed by O.K.) - the car is not starting. This is why I was saying that it doesn't seem like there's a direct link between pump-noise and a starting car. I'm 100% aware that the low-pressure-pump needs to operate to start and run the car.  Huh

Roy, if you're willing to look at the car, I'm in no rush to use it.  Smiley
Logged

Grand Espace 2.2 dCi 2001 Silver
KTM 990 SuperDuke R Smiley
Dead: BMW K1200R
TheJoker
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 278


WWW
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2009, 08:57:23 am »

Finally had a poke at the car last night. I've had a tiny power steering fluid leak just around the reservoir. I was suspecting that some of the leaked fluid has leaked down the wire harness that's just behind there. So I thought that I'd clean it up and hopefully remove any cables chafing etc around there. Sad news is that I managed to clean the reservoir up, and put new clips on the hoses etc, but I had no real success with the wires.
End result, leak hopefully fixed, car otherwise the same, not very many nicks and cuts on my hands.
I'm going to build ramps for my ramps next and hopefully I can get underneath and check the fuel pump, etc. How, I don't know. I think I'm going to get rid of the car.  Cry
Logged

Grand Espace 2.2 dCi 2001 Silver
KTM 990 SuperDuke R Smiley
Dead: BMW K1200R
TheJoker
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 278


WWW
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2009, 12:14:41 pm »

I took the car to Kidlington Renault to get it fixed. They quoted me an initial diagnose of £92. Fair enough, if it gets fixed.

But they were unable to replicate the problem. They tried several times, and kept it overnight to try it cold in the morning. Nothing. Nada.... behaved perfectly.  Angry Angry Sad They read the codes and removed them. In the end they charged me £40 for a smaller diagnosis. All above board IMO.
As I picked it up on Friday I kept driving it as much as I could and, true to their word, it worked fine every time, except for once when it lost power for 1-2 seconds, then kept going, with a red "stop"-sign on the dash. Which disappeared within a minute or so.

The codes were:
DF012 Battery Voltage 1.DEF (It's not been running a lot)
DF019 Air Flow Sensor Circuit CO.0
DF088 Flywheel Signal Information Coherence 2.DEF
DF090 Analogue/Digital Converter DEF

I guess I should now take the car back, as there should be a fault logged in the computer from the "hiccup".  Undecided
Forogt to add that I picked up a new air filter and fuel filter on Friday too. Hopefully I'll be able to fit them today (Sunday).
Logged

Grand Espace 2.2 dCi 2001 Silver
KTM 990 SuperDuke R Smiley
Dead: BMW K1200R
TheJoker
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 278


WWW
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2009, 09:44:15 am »

Bit of a happy update.  Grin

I had taken the car to Renault Kidlington again. They quoted some £240ish to have the TDC sensor replaced (which I had replaced less than a year ago) and the glow-plugs replaced. However they weren't sure, and had problems replicating the problems as everytime the car was there it seemed to "be fixed". They also figured that it was fixed because I hadn't turned the return valve on the fuel filter properly. Funnily though I replaced the fuel filter between the times at Renault Kidlington.  Roll Eyes Got charged another £96 to get the car back.  Tongue Naturally problem wasn't solved.  Kiss

Roy was kind enough to stop by here one day when he was passing. Within a few minutes he had confirmed that three out of four glow plugs were broken. It really is really easy to measure the resistance of the glow plugs. Yank the air filter off, then the cover off, then individually pull the heater wire off and measure it. Less than 5 minutes for an experienced guy like Roy. Minutes later we were on our way to the local car parts shop and had 4 new glow plugs. Replacing them was also easy for Roy, except for the last one which had an annoying zip-tie-end wedged into it preventing the socket getting onto it. Somehow Roy managed to get it out. If you've changed spark plugs on a car, you can change the glow-plugs.

Then Roy insisted on checking the TDC sensor that I replaced earlier this year. He pushed it towards the fly wheel (which I thought it was)  Shocked Then he also unplugged it and bent the connecting pins slightly apart to ensure contact.  Smiley

Took it out for a test drive, and sadly it had a hiccup.  Undecided

But some 600 miles later that's been the only hiccup!  Grin  Grin  Grin It's starting fine now, and it's not had a single hiccup or problem.  Smiley

MOT next month, with aircon re-gas. Then I'll look into the sound coming from the right front wheel.

Huge thanks to Roy!
Logged

Grand Espace 2.2 dCi 2001 Silver
KTM 990 SuperDuke R Smiley
Dead: BMW K1200R
colin4255
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 119



« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2009, 01:20:20 am »

Wow, £240 to replace a TDC sensor. My Reanault dealer charged me about £30 for the sensor and £45 to fit. It took an hour. They didn't bill me for diagnosis - they said it was obvious what was wrong when it cam eoff the back of the breakdown truck and they tried starting it. Even so, they only charge £78 for standard diagnostic check so even that would't add up to £240
Logged
TheJoker
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 278


WWW
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2009, 10:44:52 am »

Colin, that's £240 for the TDC sensor AND glow plugs. So not as bad sa you thought.
Logged

Grand Espace 2.2 dCi 2001 Silver
KTM 990 SuperDuke R Smiley
Dead: BMW K1200R
colin4255
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 119



« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2009, 12:05:02 am »

OK, thats not too bad at all then, I thought for a moment there that you'd found the dearest renault deaelr in the UK! I must get some new glasses!
Logged
Pages: [1] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to: