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Author Topic: Supercharging a Bagheera  (Read 67944 times)
andyowl
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« on: July 23, 2009, 08:36:12 am »

The realisation that our competition Bagheera does not have enough power for the straights and the fast curves confirms what many have said from the beginning, that Bagheeras need more power!

Following experience in 1968/9/70 with a Shorrock Supercharged Vauxhall Viva HB I have always thought about fitting a "Blower" to a 1442cc Bagheera. It is such a quick and relatively easy way of gaining up to 50% more power without spending huge sums on engine tuning. The car was used during the week to go selling my employer's engineering products in the North of England but without the blower connected. At the weekend I would re-connect the blower and go rallying in the wonderful Lancashire and Yorkshire hills. Happy Days......

In 1977 I discovered the Matra Bagheera and found out what motoring happiness was really about! Eventually even I had to agree that Baggys could use more power but he was used as a working car and I didn't have time to play. I had a business to run! A future project for when I retired!

With that in mind I purchased, during the '90s, two superchargers. The smaller is a Shorrock "Rotary Vane" blower intended for a 1600cc Ford Cortina complete with a 2" (50mm) SU carburettor. The other is a Wade "Double Helix" blower intended for a 3500cc Rover/Chevrolet V8 installed in a drag racer but purchased without a carb. A large USA Holley carb was recommended!

So now is the time to add "doing" to all the "thinking"!

Yesterday I took from the garage roof space the smaller Shorrock blower and blew off the dust (lots of it!). Everything seems to be there and everything is still free and smooth. The WD40 I had sprayed inside and outside the casing has done a good job while the clothes I plugged the apertures with have prevented ingress of "foreign bodies" such as bugs, moths and mice! A good start! See the pictures below..

The most likely space in the Baggy engine compartment is on the left side above the gearbox although there may be space on the right side with the rear of the blower located above and behind the right side tyre. The "boot" space is also a possibility but that would mean drastic surgery and a lot of metalwork. I have decided to try the gearbox space first.

Concept: Mount the blower on the left over the gear linkage close to and supported by the rear bulkhead rather than by the engine itself (which is the normal way). The drive can be by a cross shaft from the pulley system on the right side of the engine. The carb is a problem with the horizontal SU carb not the ideal configuration. Sucking air from the space above the engine cover would be good or better still from the outside air which should be nice and cool.

The blower is driven by twin "vee" belts from a modified crankshaft pulley. An additional two pulleys have to be added to the standard Simca/Matra pulley to provide the drive and I think there is enough space to add these and allow the belts to pass below the right side engine mounting to the driven pulleys, see the last picture.

Time to cut some metal! Watch this space!

All thoughts and ideas are very welcome! This is time for "silly suggestions". Nothing will be rejected.

Andy
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Fred
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« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2009, 12:20:52 am »

Great thread Andy, I especially liked this bit (in bold):

Following experience in 1968/9/70 with a Shorrock Supercharged Vauxhall Viva HB I have always thought about fitting a "Blower" to a 1442cc Bagheera.  The car was used during the week to go selling my employer's engineering products in the North of England but without the blower connected. At the weekend I would re-connect the blower and go rallying in the wonderful Lancashire and Yorkshire hills. Happy Days......

I'll be watching this one with interest!  Wink
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Spyros
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« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2009, 10:54:18 pm »

Andy,

I don't remember how it was done. But on SimcaCG, they did supercharge (Constantion supercharger) a similar version of our engine (1200 cc)
I can't say if it was only due to the supercharger but the power grew from 85 to 120 hp.
I presume this value should be possible
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andyowl
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« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2009, 08:21:13 am »

At Prescott I met Gerard Magro who owns a Supercharged CG-Simca. We did not get much time to talk but he offered to tell me what was done to the car. I expect to see him again at Etretat and maybe I should try to see the CG.

He has won the "Classements Scratch" for the last three years in the CG548 Spyder at Etretat!

Thank you for the reminder.

Andy
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Jacobosterlindh
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« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2009, 12:51:56 pm »

seen this?

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JL
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« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2009, 02:28:33 pm »

This must be a Simca 1000 setup where you have loads of room in the engine bay. I am not keen on the blow off valve venting air fuel mixture into the engine bay but an interesting setup nevertheless.

John
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andyowl
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New exhaust "straight through" - good sound!


« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2009, 03:31:59 pm »

Yes thank you, I have seen this thread and followed it with interest. Nice engineering and colours!

But, as someone else has said, I don't think it is a Bagheera engine bay. The distributor location is unusual and the rocker cover is not the same. Loads of space where the DCOE carb is located which I think is where the Bagheera fuel tank is fitted.

Thanks anyway.

Andy

PS I you think Bagheera spares are sometimes expensive try this..
Lamborghini Urraco, 33 years old, replacement clutch pressure plate, if you can find one, is £2,000. This does not include the friction disc nor the release bearing which are an extra £750. Time to go into manufacture I think. Plus freight and VAT of course. Anyone know a good clutch repairer?

AMO
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andyowl
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New exhaust "straight through" - good sound!


« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2009, 08:16:31 pm »

I attended an open air car show, Retro-Rides,  at the Haynes Motor Museum yesterday near Taunton in Somerset.  Baggy Joe was one of the Simca Club UK exhibits and attracted great interest.

Also there was the Simca 1100SR with a supercharger fitted. Very interesting but not very revealing as to the detail as the owner, Mick Ward - editor and competition secretary of the Simca Club UK - has had the car for only a short time and all the work was done by the previous owner. The boost is only 4-6psi (0.3-0.4bar) but he says it is still great fun to drive and drove the car from his home to the show and back again all in one day, around 680km! Well done. He has lent me two books on supercharging and I have some serious reading to do.

Another exhibitor had a supercharged and Nitrous Oxide injected Fiat Merea estate car there (I think that was the model). Nitrous Oxide seems to be a miracle additive and relatively simple to fit. The bad news is that it is not allowed in Sprints and Hill Climbs. Drag Racers use it extensively, but I think I will have to save that idea for a road car! Google "Nitrous Oxide" to get a flavour of what can be achieved.

Another exhibitor was a "Rolling Road" or "Dynamometer" operator offering to test your car and provide a paper (graphic) report of the results for £35 (38Euro). I'll report on that in a separate post as I need to check on the conversion factors for "BHP" to "DIN kW". Either way, Baggy Joe had more power at the wheels (and at the flywheel) that I remember the book saying! Good news!

Andy
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Lanng
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« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2009, 12:55:01 pm »

I found this on the www - if anyone wants to follow up on the thread.

http://www.bcsc.co.uk/info/superch.html - Shorrock Supercharger Catalogue
http://www.mg-tabc.org/supercharger/Shorrock_ABC.pdf - some basics
http://www.shorrocksuperchargers.co.uk/ - more technical data

/// Lanng
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andyowl
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New exhaust "straight through" - good sound!


« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2009, 10:38:49 am »

Thanks for these sites. I have followed them up as follows:-

http://www.bcsc.co.uk/info/superch.html - Shorrock Supercharger Catalogue. Useful information but the phone numbers no longer work and emails have not been answered.

http://www.mg-tabc.org/supercharger/Shorrock_ABC.pdf - some basics. I cannot get this site to open. Did you succeed?

http://www.shorrocksuperchargers.co.uk/ - more technical data. This one is sad too. The author Ian Bishop died of cancer in June this year. The site was designed by his friend as a memorial to his enthusiasm and he would like to find someone to take over the work. I have registered an interest with the site designer and said I would like to contribute when I have some data from my own Shorrock Project.

I am now committed to have our competition Matra-Simca-Shorrock Bagheera on the Matra Club stand at the National Exhibition Centre Classic Car show in November and have offered rides to club members at our December meeting in Kent. We are hoping to have several Matra competition cars there (RB Djet, Murena 2.2 Sprint/Hill Climb, Murena-Zetec conversion, Murena 1.6, and two Bagheeras). 

No going back now!

All Matristi are of course very welcome to join us at both events! More info follows soon

Andy Owler

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Lanng
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« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2009, 11:07:11 am »

Hi Andy

No prob with the http://www.mg-tabc.org/supercharger/Shorrock_ABC.pdf - I downloaded it, so drop me an email and I will send you the pdf.
Sorry to hear about Mr. Bishop - and kudos for following up on his work.

Looking forward to hear more about the supercharger project.

Quick question - As I understand; the large Shorrock supercharger works best between 3500rpm and 5000rpm. Is the not going to be an issue with the Bagherra engiens as they are high rpm based? and is it possible to get the charger to kick in at lower rpm. Reason for asking is my Saab 900 T16S (1991) has the "new" mitsu turbo on it which starts at 2500rpm and dies at 4000rpm - its a quick spooling turbo but loosing all the power at 4000rpm and only having a 1500rpm boost window is a bit small for my liking. AND if the Bagheerra Shorrock get the same "turbo kick" as the old Saab - its going to be REALLY fun to drive Smiley

/// Lanng
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2009, 11:54:05 am »

If you are going for a new installation, don't forget one of the current leading supercharger companies, Rotrex. Based in Herlev, Denmark - my back garden Wink
Their units are very small.

http://www.supercharger-experience.com/

Yes, they have supercharged the Koenigsegg!

/Anders
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andyowl
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New exhaust "straight through" - good sound!


« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2009, 10:39:58 am »

Lanng.. Thank you for the offer of a copy of the "ABC" file. I tried the link in your posting and it worked fine! Interesting stuff!

Maximum blower speed..
There are various figures quoted for the maximum advised RPM for the larger Shorrock and I have not yet decided which to use. I have an Allard-Shorrock original data sheet which gives, for the C148B blower which I already have, a maximum short duration RPM of 6500 and a sustained RPM of 4750. If I use the same diameter pulley on the crankshaft and on the blower i.e. 1:1 ratio this is not so different to the normal Bagheera engine speeds.  Remember that I am doing short duration events such as Sprints and Hill Climbs where the time spent "cruising" at maximum speed is relatively short. Better accelleration is what I need.

When I used a Shorrock blower on my "everyday" car (a 1966 Vauxhall Viva) the problems occured when I went quickly on motorways. The pistons overheated and melted (several times). Around towns or rallying on minor roads the overheating was much reduced and I don't remember any piston failures in those circumstances. I'm hoping that the same will apply on the Bagheera. Stuck in traffic jams around Manchester was also a problem as the lubricating oil being injected into the blower often contaminated the plugs causing mis-firing. Waiting in line to start the Sprint or climb the hill sounds very like a traffic jam and I have a plan to inject oil only when the blower raises the intake pressure above atmospheric pressure i.e. when the engine is working hard and capable of burning off the oil.

I appreciate that modern blowers are smaller and lighter. If/when I destroy the blower I have I will certainly look around for alternatives but at the moment I want to try the device I already have and think that I understand.

Andy Owler
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Lanng
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« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2009, 02:20:08 pm »

Hi Andy und Anders

The idea was to find a Bagherra and use it for Classic Hill Climb, Classic Rally etc etc. So because of the underpowered engine in the Bagherra the supercharger sounded like the way to go - as regulations requires "old school" mods in order to pass.

However because of resent personal events everything has been put on hold  - so no Classic Hill Climb or Bagherra this year Sad  I even got acces to a nice warm garage with all the tools you could ever need for free.  Cry

To Andy - who about changing the compression and use a waterjet injection system. Saab used them on the Saab 900 Turbo (1987-1989; I think) and you can still get the AquaMist system for 500£ in Sweden. I know this relates more to detonation in the combustion chamber - but if it works on a turbo why not on a SuperCharger.

/// Lanng
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2009, 07:59:41 pm »

I appreciate that modern blowers are smaller and lighter. If/when I destroy the blower I have I will certainly look around for alternatives but at the moment I want to try the device I already have and think that I understand.

My comment was not raised towards you, Andy, I'm sure you have an excellent blower there, but if people "just" want to tune their engine, a modern blower should be considered.

The idea was to find a Bagherra and use it for Classic Hill Climb, Classic Rally etc etc. So because of the underpowered engine in the Bagherra the supercharger sounded like the way to go - as regulations requires "old school" mods in order to pass.

Old school yes, but as I read the hill climb rules here, they have to be homologated too. Or am I missing something there?

Quote
However because of resent personal events everything has been put on hold  - so no Classic Hill Climb or Bagherra this year Sad  I even got acces to a nice warm garage with all the tools you could ever need for free.  Cry

Sorry to hear that. If you decide to scrap the idea completely, then I think we're all happy you shared the idea with us and stimulated the discussion! But I hope it works out in the end!

/Anders
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