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Author Topic: poor auto box changes espace 04  (Read 13225 times)
chuffer
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« on: August 21, 2009, 05:29:07 pm »

Hi Guys,

First I am aware that my Espace is not a Matra but I live in hope that somebody can help.

I have owned the car for just over a year and I have had auto gear change problems since I bought it, the fault does not occur every time so is difficult to demo to an engineer.

Often when joining a motorway in third gear at around 40 Mph and then accelerating to join the traffic flow the vehicle will reach 65Mph and close to red line revs and it will not change up even if I release the accelerator pedal, when it has slowed to around 30Mph it will change up through 4th to fifth gear, and generally it is very late in changing up all the time.

If I used the manual change option it works as you would expect.

If I have previously set the cruse control to 55Mph and then on level ground in 5th gear, pressing the resume button at around 53Mph will often result in it changing down two gears to 3rd and accelerating very very rapidly to around 58/59 Mph before changing quickly through 4th to 5th gear.

I have attended my local Renault dealer, I was able to demo the fault, he tested the gearbox pressures and found them to be correct.

He agreed that the car is not nice to drive and scanned the ECU's and he does not think there is anything wrong there, he confirmed that the software on both the ECU's are the latest versions and there was one stored error of an over voltage, deemed to be the place of purchase boost starting it from a flat battery, he cleared this error and he reset the driver style settings. ( Auto-Programming )

I have purchased a ODBII scanner (ODB2007) and that shows that the load values, one from the engine and one from the transmission ECU have very different values, using a low acceleration level, the engine value can be at 100% whilst the transmission value at that time might be 22%, this with a Rpm of 1997 and a road speed of 9 Mph, these two values are never anywhere near the same.

The author of my scanning software thinks the load values should be near the same, as are the twin Rpm, Mph and Engine Coolant figures and it might be this difference that is effecting the gear change points.

It also shows that the Long Term Fuel trim is often over 40%, ( passed an MOT recently ) I asked my dealer to check this and he told me that they have never had the software to read fuel trims.!

My scanner creates spreadsheet log files and these can be read at anytime. ( anybody like a copy ? )

I have complained to Renault UK Customer Support about the inability of my dealer to locate the fault hoping they would have a level 2 engineer available, my answer came from an administrator who wants me to visit a main dealer and pay again to have it scanned, even suggesting that this performance is a "function" of this model.

My confidence in them diagnosing the problem is low and I'm not very happy that I have to spend another £100 ( €116 ) , Renault Customer Services have refused to pay this charge for a second test.

Also please, are you also able to confirm that this vehicle is fully EOBDII complaint ? ( ISO 14230-4 KWP-Fast )

My scanner reports that the "pending errors" is an unsupported function.

When I showed my scanner output to my dealer he said that my software must be faulty, and Customer Services told me I should not be connection anything to the car as I would damage it.!

Sorry this got to be very long post but once I got started I had to include the details.

Finding a copy of the correct manual ( yes even buying another one ) would be a great start, the one I got from Peter Russek was of no help. ( F4R engine to 2005 )

Where are the load sensors ?, what are they really called ?,

Hoping you can help in any way.


Type, JK0B / S095159        Model, Espace IV  Expression Turbo A          Version N EX 20TA 14

Engine, F4R 795    Gearbox SU1 017.
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renaultbiler
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« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2009, 09:43:39 am »

First of all, a generic OBD tester is designed to work on emission related problems. Some will tell more and some will tell a bunch of undefined crap.

What is the mileage ? any Oil change ?
CORRECT oil if so ?
Use only Part nr 77 11 218 368 (2 litres)
NEVER use anything but Renault prescribed auto box oil - it is absolutely no good reason for using anything else.

There is a lot on an automatic transmission that must be correct for it to work properly, in addition it is very sensitive that the engine is working properly. A lot of data is transmitted between engine computer and autobox computer regarding torque, throttle and more.

This autobox (SU1) is a japanese Aisin box

You could firstly try to carry out a new programming procedure on it, see attached file for instructions.
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roy4matra
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« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2009, 02:25:48 pm »

Hi Guys,

First I am aware that my Espace is not a Matra but I live in hope that somebody can help.

I have owned the car for just over a year and I have had auto gear change problems since I bought it, the fault does not occur every time so is difficult to demo to an engineer.

Often when joining a motorway in third gear at around 40 Mph and then accelerating to join the traffic flow the vehicle will reach 65Mph and close to red line revs and it will not change up even if I release the accelerator pedal, when it has slowed to around 30Mph it will change up through 4th to fifth gear, and generally it is very late in changing up all the time.

First, this is how these boxes actually work!  They are not like what I call a normal auto box, so if you have had other cars with auto boxes you will have to change style slightly for a Renault one.  I was trained by Borg-Warner years ago on diagnosis, repair, overhaul and even driving auto boxes, and it was a very good training, but when I first drove a Renault auto I thought it was faulty.

They have been designed to change between set speeds and you will note that when slowing down from speed in top, they will automatically change down at set speeds even though you do not have your foot on the throttle.  If you slowed all the way to a stop you would be in first by the time you stopped.  In a conventional auto it would stay in top all the way, saving fuel, and wear, and if you did put your foot on the throttle to drive again before you had come to a stop, it would immediately select the appropriate gear for the speed and throttle etc. and pull away.

If you accelerate hard or maybe put it into 'kick-down', when you lift throttle in a conventional auto it will immediately change up.  In the Renault if you lift fully it will not, it will stay in that gear and start to slow giving you engine braking!  The technique to upchange is to ease the throttle up slightly and then actually put a tiny bit more on again.  It should then change up.  The main problem is the way the electronics are designed to work, but part of the problem is that this is a fly-by-wire throttle so the amount of throttle physically is not necessarily the same as the amount of power required or expected as with a cable, so you cannot 'think' or work linear.  I had to demonstrate this technique to many new owners who found it a problem, when I worked at Renault.

Quote
If I used the manual change option it works as you would expect.

If I have previously set the cruse control to 55Mph and then on level ground in 5th gear, pressing the resume button at around 53Mph will often result in it changing down two gears to 3rd and accelerating very very rapidly to around 58/59 Mph before changing quickly through 4th to 5th gear.

All as I would expect.

Quote
I have attended my local Renault dealer, I was able to demo the fault, he tested the gearbox pressures and found them to be correct.

He would find everything fine.  He has not understood your concern or he is not familiar with the way other boxes work so he is unaware that what you think is wrong is how the Renault one works.

Quote
I have complained to Renault UK Customer Support about the inability of my dealer to locate the fault...

They won't find one as there is probably no fault.  I cannot be 100% sure without having driven it, but it sounds like the usual misunderstanding of the differences of the way Renault auto boxes work.

Please try out what I said and see if it works, or if you live near enough I can come and check it with you and demonstrate the technique.  I had one driver that could never get used to it, yet as I showed it worked every time for me, and he eventually got rid of the car as he just did not like it.

Roy (Ex Renault RTE)
« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 02:56:21 pm by roy4matra » Logged

chuffer
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« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2009, 03:35:41 pm »


Hi Roy.

What a breath of fresh air !.

First, I'm in Bridgend, South Wales, where are you  ?

Second.
I have owned 2x Renault 25's 1x Renault 30, mkII jag with Borg Warner 35, Jag XJ6, and a Citroen Xantia, all autos, and I driven lots of others and I have never known any of them to behave in this way.

However, I can confirm that the "fault" can be replicated ( sometimes ) at the same location/place and under repeatable driving conditions ( same speeds, loads Etc ) so that does make you think your point that they are designed to change at set speeds is very correct, but, in lots of other places and times it's right on the button and the change up speed is very variable.!

Surely that can't be right, even the old 35's would always change differently under different conditions, only had 3 gears of course.

From memory I do not think I have owned a auto with engine braking before, driven some, and I think it's an OK feature.

My thoughts are that the ODB load data needs to be sorted, they have got to be involved in the change points somewhere.

My dealer has been very cooperative, also a RTE, but I think he is stumped, I know he has spoken to Customer Services ( administrator ) and that guy has also spoken to a engineer at the main dealership, surely, if this was a function of the car he would not have suggested that I visit the main dealer ( at my cost ) for another test. ! ?. ( or would he ? )

I am still surprised he cannot read the fuel trims.!

What would be of fantastic help would be to find another 04 auto Espace and connect my OBD scanner and compare the data, or somebody with a scanner and get a copy of their log file and of course to hear their experiences, that would settle a lot of things.

My best description of how it drives when cruising would be "lumpy", worst car I have ever owned.

And lastly, I have searched and posted stuff in a few places and nobody has reported/replied with a " mine does that "

Les.
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chuffer
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« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2009, 09:16:33 pm »

A note for Tom Stallvik .

Could I please get a copy of the whole file from which you sent me a page ?

Thanks

Les
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roy4matra
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« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2009, 09:32:47 pm »


Hi Roy.

What a breath of fresh air !.

First, I'm in Bridgend, South Wales, where are you  ?

I live in Harrow, but I now work for myself and I'm mobile, so I do get around.  I was in Stoke St.Gregory (near Taunton) on Thursday so it's a pity that I didn't know then.  I could have made a 'slight' detour on my return!

Quote
Second.
I have owned 2x Renault 25's 1x Renault 30, mkII jag with Borg Warner 35, Jag XJ6, and a Citroen Xantia, all autos, and I driven lots of others and I have never known any of them to behave in this way.

No this applies to all the 'modern' Renault boxes - say from around 2000 onwards.  The Jag Autos would certainly not have behaved in that way.

Quote
However, I can confirm that the "fault" can be replicated ( sometimes ) at the same location/place and under repeatable driving conditions ( same speeds, loads Etc ) so that does make you think your point that they are designed to change at set speeds is very correct, but, in lots of other places and times it's right on the button and the change up speed is very variable.!

Sorry you may have misunderstood me.  When I said set speeds, I did not mean one set point.  They have a range of upchange and downshift points for each gear depending on all the variables - throttle, speed, boost, map sensor, TDC reading, etc. etc.  So there is a band for each gear.  However, they have been designed to drive like the way we used to be told to drive a manual box in the old days when brakes were not so good and you relied on downshifting and engine braking to aid the (poor) brakes.  The French do not appear to have caught up yet!!  Now you are told to leave it in the high gear generally and use the brakes to do all the braking (as they are very good and much cheaper to repair than clutches and gearboxes).

So whilst a conventional auto will stay in top as you are slowing for instance, the Renault will reach the set lower point and then change down, until it eventually reaches first or you open the throttle to accelerate again.  Of course it is already in the right gear to accelerate, whereas the conventional one will assess the variables and select the appropriate gear anyway.

Quote
From memory I do not think I have owned a auto with engine braking before...

Not whilst in 'D' or 'Drive', but if you wanted engine braking, you user the 'L' position or 'Lock-up' as it was denoted; or on later models moved the selector to '3' or '2' as appropriate.  The whole point of 'D' was to drive under power, but sort of coast with throttle off, saving fuel.

Quote
My thoughts are that the ODB load data needs to be sorted, they have got to be involved in the change points somewhere.

As I said, the auto gearbox computers work in conjunction with the injection computers and all the variables to change as appropriate *within the speed band allocated for the relative gears* but the important point is that they WILL NOT change up simply by lifting the throttle abruptly like a conventional auto.  You need to 'learn' the technique of lifting slightly and then applying a little throttle.  It then works every time.  Sometimes it will change if you just lift or ease the throttle slightly and hold it there and after a slight delay it will change, which is probably why you have had it change as you would expect, at times.  The more throttle you were using in the low gear the more you tend to lift once you have finished accelerating, but these won't respond as you want if you do that.  Just ease the throttle back to get the upchange.

Quote
My dealer has been very cooperative, also a RTE, but I think he is stumped, I know he has spoken to Customer Services ( administrator ) and that guy has also spoken to a engineer at the main dealership, surely, if this was a function of the car he would not have suggested that I visit the main dealer ( at my cost ) for another test. ! ?. ( or would he ? )

The answer here is actually 'often he would'.  The problem is as I said before - some of these guys do not really understand the differences between Renault and conventional autos, and often simply take the customers word that there is a problem.  I have a great deal more varied experience having worked for over twelve different manufacturers in the last 38 years, and I can assure you that I know this 'problem' well.  I used to spend a lot of time with owners explaining and demonstrating the ways these worked, on all models but especially Lagunas and Espace IV.  We have many autos here in London.

Quote
I am still surprised he cannot read the fuel trims.!

Fuel trims??  Sorry I don't understand that term.  What do you mean?  What are you trying to get?

As I said before, road test the car again and try the technique the way I have described it - in fact try a heavy throttle acceleration and lift abruptly at say 4500 rpm and you will see it remain in low gear and give you engine braking; then try it again but only ease back the throttle and even apply a little after lifting and it should change up as required.

I never liked the way they work, but it IS the way are designed to work, and if you have no error codes or faults reported then I can say that the chances are you do not have a problem.  As for the technical department, again they can only assume there is a fault if the RTE reports it as one, until they have found otherwise.  Forget Customer Services as they know little technically and I would never even approach them, let alone trust their judgement!

To give you some idea of my credentials, technical occasionally used to contact me for help when I was at Renault.  Not on this subject admittedly, but what I'm trying to say is that when they trust you and your level of expertise, they are not blind to asking for your help.

Roy
« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 09:42:35 pm by roy4matra » Logged

chuffer
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« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2009, 01:16:40 am »

Hi Roy,
I got this from here as it explains it better than I could.

http://www.obd2crazy.com/techdata.html

Fuel Trim
Fuel trim refers to adjustments being made dynamically to the base fuel table to get the proper ratio of fuel to air. Short term fuel trim refers to adjustments being made in response to temporary conditions. Long term fuel trim is used to compensate for issues that seem to be present over a much longer period. Fuel trims are expressed in percentages; positive values indicate lean (add fuel) and negative values indicate rich (subtract fuel). Fuel trim banks refer to the cylinder banks in a V style engine. Cylinder #1 is always in bank 1. Fuel trim is generally calculated by using a wide set of data values, including front O2 sensors, intake air temperature/pressure (or the more elegent air mass sensor), engine (coolant) temp, anti-knock sensors, engine load, throttle position (and change in throttle position), and even battery voltage can effect fuel trim. Long term fuel trim generally should not exceed +- 10%.


The most interesting bit is in the last line, "should not exceed +-10%" you can see below in a 3 second section from my scantool log that at this point my LTFT is -32% and the STFT is at -28.9%.
My understanding is as stated that the LTFT should be +-10% and the STFT can reach 25% for a short time before it get "adjusted" back to +-10%.

Clearly mine are "way out" and it is subtracting fuel because it's running rich, from other sections from the above site these figures are all related to load and therefore the gear change points, and my two load figures are always different values and I think it can be expected that they should each be the same as are the other duplicates.

The way the data is received from the ECU's is engine first and then transmission.

I do understand your comments about cheating the change points and I'm sure that what you say will work, but it raises the question which I'm having problems putting into words.................

"If you need to ( or can ) cheat to get it to change up in an orderly fashion when say under light acceleration, how does it ever change when using cruse control" , clearly, cruse does not lift and accelerate to achieve a change.

I can drive a particular section of road ( which is slightly up hill ) under very very similar conditions both manually and under cruse control and some times in either method it will change up at the anticipated point and other times I can go another mile whilst it remains in 3rd gear.

I have tested several scantool software packages and even the free ones report fuel trims which would appear to be fundamental to the performance of the engine, this is why I was surprised my dealer said he could not read them.

Absolute throttle position 32 %
O2 sensor voltage B1S1 0.165000007 v - %STFT
O2 sensor voltage B1S2 0.785000026 v - %STFT
Distance travelled while MIL light activated 0 miles
Calculated load value 69 %
Calculated load value 22 %
Engine coolant temperature 190 °F
Engine coolant temperature 190 °F
Short term fuel trim Bank 1 -28.9 %
Long term fuel trim Bank 1 -32 %
Intake Manifold Absolute Pressure 22.4 inHg
Engine RPM 1951 rpm
Engine RPM 1951 rpm
Vehicle speed 40 mph
Vehicle speed 40 mph
Ignition timing Advance for cylinder #1 26 °
Air intake temperature 66 °
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roy4matra
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« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2009, 10:33:56 am »

Hi Roy,
I got this from here as it explains it better than I could.

Fuel Trim
Fuel trim refers to adjustments...
Long term fuel trim generally should not exceed +- 10%.


Personally I would forget all that as Renault do not stick to the standards as far as EOBD goes.  The Renault diagnostic 'Clip' laptop has a section for EOBD and it never worked properly, and every time I complained I was told unofficially that Renault do their own thing and don't comply, so it will never work!

So if your Injection computer is not reporting faults which it would if there were faults with the fuelling, or mixture, then you do not have a problem.  You cannot connect other diagnostic equipment and expect to get sensible data out of it because it won't understand their system.

With Clip you can go to the live data screens and see the readouts in their format, which will tell an experienced user if everything looks fine or not.

Quote
I do understand your comments about cheating the change points and I'm sure that what you say will work, but it raises the question which I'm having problems putting into words.................

I'm sorry to disagree but this is not 'cheating' as you put it.  Their system is so different to conventional autos that this is the way to drive them.  If you drive them gently or from the cruise control it will change up and down via the software control, but from the accelerator the 'inputs' if you like are generally too large and will tell it to do things which in fact you do not want, unless you change.  You cannot compare acceleration via cruise control to large or full throttle on the pedal as it will never replicate that.  In the same way that a gentle lift would signal the upchange from drive to overdrive in an overdrive box, or the point which you wanted the change in an old pre-select box, this is the manual signal to the electronics that you want the upchange on these.

I've had this complaint from customers so many times, and as I said even I thought they were faulty in the beginning, but  it is just the way the Renault auto works.  Get used to it or change to something else.  As long as the computers have the latest software and are not reporting faults I doubt you have a problem.  I don't design them, I'm just telling how they work.  I'm explaining so don't go wasting time on a fruitless exercise trying to get them to correct a fault that doesn't exist.

To give you some idea of the way Renault 'think' there was a problem with wear on the Espace IV auto box since the engines had become powerful enough to cause premature failure with repeated heavy acceleration from rest with what is a heavy vehicle.  Their answer?  They altered the software on one of the computer upgrades we had to do, to not allow the heavy acceleration from rest!  We used to get complaints from customers that the vehicles no longer accelerated away from rest as well as they used to, and they assumed there was a fault.  It wasn't a fault but the way the new software had been designed so there was nothing we could do to alter it. (you cannot change software to an earlier version)

If your car was over-fuelling as much as your reader predicts a) the Renault software would indicate a fault, it would be readable from the Clip, and b) you would be getting very poor consumption.

If you won't accept the car as normal, you could try to find another car with exactly the same spec. and test drive it, but bear in mind that often with mass produced cars no two drive EXACTLY the same.  Or you will have to get a Renault Technician from HQ (not the dealerships) to road test it, for which you may have to pay, who will probably proclaim it is normal anyway.  The choice is yours.

If I was in the area I could contact you to test drive it, but I have no more planned trips to that area at the moment and my travel costs just for that would be too great.

Roy
« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 03:19:14 pm by roy4matra » Logged

chuffer
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« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2009, 09:09:09 pm »

Hi Roy,

Thanks for your time to answer my questions.

Having given more thought to your comments in the way a auto box with engine braking functions I fully understand what you have said about lifting a little and then applying a little more power to "force" it to change up earlier than it wants to.

And as you quite rightly say that does work, but I think that all auto's with engine braking would probably behave in this way not just Renault's.

However, I think we have got off the point from my first post and that was..............

Often when joining a motorway in third gear at around 40 Mph and then accelerating to join the traffic flow the vehicle will reach 65Mph and close to red line revs and it will not change up even if I release the accelerator pedal, when it has slowed to around 30Mph it will change up through 4th to fifth gear, and generally it is very late in changing up all the time.
I did say "even if I release the accelerator pedal" and  I do mean "even if".

Taking note of your comments I can see that releasing the pedal completely would put it into a engine braking mode, ( or indeed any amount that was less than the setting required to maintain acceleration ) and therefore it would not want to change up under those circumstances, although as I said when it does slow to around 30 mph it most certainly does change up, not down, but the point that has been missed is.......................

how does it get to the point of not wanting to change up in the first place ! ?.

We are not talking boy racer acceleration here, just a normal amount to join the inside lane of traffic flow of around 55/65 mph.

This is why I raised the point about what if it were under cruse control, say I had previously set a speed of 65mph and applied the resume button at 35 mph on the slip road, I would expect it to change up at the appropriate points without any intervention from me and often it will not do so, hence my comment of  " generally it is very late in changing up all the time".

Disengaging cruse and "cheating/forcing" a change up would not be very practical.


Worth noting that if I command it to change up using the manual function and immediately return the lever to the auto position it will stay in the higher gear which indicates to me that it is quite happy in that gear and I am not expecting it too early.

I am able to graph the ODB data and the 2 load figures always peak and trough at the same point in time, albeit at different values, so it is very unlikely from Renault " doing their own thing" that my scantool is reading the wrong sensor.

Please don't take this the wrong way but as I don't know how long you have been out of the Renault dealership things may now have changed with regard to the EOBDII stuff and they may now have got some of it right with upgrades, on this page  http://en.calameo.com/books/00002232063718fb46bb1  this document was published by Renault Documentation, undated but clearly written some time after 2000, in the comments near the bottom it says....................
---------------------------------------

cars with OBD work totally different. The data range is larger, more status bits and different commanding like the KWP2000 key word protocol.

The megane 1 phase 2 can be read out with KWP2000 and with the XR25. Cars after 2000 cannot be readout with the XR25.

All Renault OBDII (KWP2000 or else) can be read by standard universal OBD readers except for the ABS, Aircon and UCH functions (only the motor ECU) For the exceptional functions Renault CLIP is needed.

Renault DDT2000 works with practical every OBDII convertor. It lists the OBD2 values but is does not have the XR25 capability. It is a far from complete experimental tool.
-----------------------------

My scantool reports it is using KWP2000 protocol to read my car, and other protocols on some other cars.

Thanks

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roy4matra
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« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2009, 11:27:38 am »

Hi Roy,

Thanks for your time to answer my questions.

Having given more thought to your comments in the way a auto box with engine braking functions I fully understand what you have said about lifting a little and then applying a little more power to "force" it to change up earlier than it wants to.

No, that's where we are on a misunderstanding.  You're saying 'change up earlier than it wants to'.  I'm saying that it won't change up at all under heavy acceleration until you signal it to do so.  You're expecting it to accelerate quickly under a large throttle and then change up automatically, and I'm saying that it won't.  A conventional auto would, but these in my experience won't.

And again you appear to have not understood my statement that these fly-by-wire throttles are not linear like cables.  You may not have achieved kick-down or think you have a heavy throttle, but if the acceleration demanded by the throttle is beyond a certain point, the software may consider it high enough to delay changes until signalled rather than allowing them automatically.

These are from my own experiences, having driven many Renault autos up until I left within the last two years.  I agree they MAY have altered in the last two years, but knowing Renault I rather doubt it.  Since I have not driven your car, and can only go by the descriptions you have given, it sounds to me like the normal Renault behaviour.  Therefore my comments are based upon that.  However, I think at his point we have to say that we are never going to agree since I have not experienced your car and can only comment on what I'm supposing it is like, and you are obviously convinced it is not right, and you may be right.  And if it has a fault then my comments are no longer valid.

I have seen similar situations with a number of owners and as I stated, one even sold the car and changed to another brand as he could not live with the way the Renault worked.  I have to say that I agreed with him in fact - I love a good car with a good auto box, but I would NEVER buy a Renault auto, unless they change to them to the conventional operating mode.

Since you are obviously not happy, and still believe it is incorrect, the only course for you is as I stated last time: either try another with exactly the same spec. in exactly the same circumstances, or get it checked by Renault technical rather than just the dealer.

Quote
And as you quite rightly say that does work, but I think that all auto's with engine braking would probably behave in this way not just Renault's.

I've never come across any other auto boxes that behave like these Renaults.  Normal autos ONLY have engine braking when you manually select a lower gear or 'lock-up', so there is no other to compare them with, and therefore that statement is meaningless if you understand me.  No offence intended.

Quote
Often when joining a motorway in third gear at around 40 Mph and then accelerating to join the traffic flow the vehicle will reach 65Mph and close to red line revs and it will not change up even if I release the accelerator pedal,

By releasing the accelerator pedal you are telling the software you want to slow down, so it will definitely not change up, which you expect, because that is what a conventional auto would do.  I repeat, with this software if you want it to change up you must only lift slightly, then actually press it down again slightly.  This tells it you have finished with acceleration in that gear, BUT that you want to continue at speed rather than slowing.  The fact that the engine was getting close to the red line, tells me it was treating the acceleration as high otherwise it would have changed earlier.

I'll give you one reason that Renault stated to us, why it will not change up as you lift.  If you had accelerated close to the red line, and then lifted, it could be you were entering a corner, and the last thing you would want at that moment is for the box to change up!  But by only lifting or easing the throttle and then actually putting some on again, it 'knows' that you actually want to continue, not slow.

However, enough.  I think you are going to have to get it checked, although you may have to pay for that service if it is considered normal.  If it is considered there is a fault, then the cost should be covered by the repair.  If it is faulty and they cure it, I would be very interested to hear what the problem was, since the system is not signalling any faults from what you have said.

Thanks for all your detailed explanations.

Roy
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 01:53:30 pm by roy4matra » Logged

chuffer
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« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2009, 05:03:24 pm »

Hi Roy.

I DO ( honest ) understand what you have said about over run auto boxes, I hoped that my comments here would have made it clear that I do.........

Taking note of your comments I can see that releasing the pedal completely would put it into a engine braking mode, ( or indeed any amount that was less than the setting required to maintain acceleration ) and therefore it would not want to change up under those circumstances

Whilst I have not "owned" another car with engine braking I certainly have driven a few ( i:e Lexus L200 ) and I am reasonably certain they behave in the same accelerating - lifting way, I have a friend with a late model Skoda Octavia, and whilst I have not driven it I have ridden in it many times and I'm sure that it does it as well, ( engine braking ) it thumps a bit as it changes into first at around 5mph so it's quite noticeable. ( I'll check )

Regardless of all that, you have not yet, and I would be grateful if you did, comment on this previous comment...............

say I had previously set a ( cruse ) speed of 65mph and applied the resume button at 35 mph on the slip road, I would expect it to change up at the appropriate points without any intervention from me and often it will not do so.

If on almost level ground you applied the resume at 35mph in 3rd ( over 2000 rpm ) gear surely you would not expect to reach and maintain 65mph and still be, and remain in 3rd ( without intervention,)              it often does this          and it can't be right.

Usually when resuming under the 35 to 65 Mph type situations the acceleration is quite "sedate" it's only under 53 to 55 when it can sometimes be very violent, changing down from 5th ( at less than 2000 rpm ) to 3rd in the process.

From the use of cruse settings we can surely safely discount any questions about how much physical throttle has been applied, the amount will be based on the map for those conditions,

I am aware that the ECU has around 13 maps, 1 open loop ( for when it's cold ), 6 below 2000 rpm and 6 above and uses the appropriate map based on as you say all the inputs,  throttle, speed, boost, map sensor, TDC reading, etc. etc.

IF, and only as a suggestion, IF, the transmission load input was not in the expected/normal range this might have serious consequences in which map it chooses to use and it could be waiting for a value, ( that it never gets,)  before "it" wants to command a gear change.

Quite possible that these are not a set of circumstances sufficient to throw a MIL, the system is obviously capable of correcting levels ( fuel trims etc ) sufficiently to meet the current emission tests for a MOT.

Of course I understand that not having driven it you can only go on your experiences of many previous situations and I am doing my best to include anything that I think may be relevant and I am not for one moment questioning your ability, truly I am very grateful for all your comments.

It would be so nice if one of the (currently ) 173 people who have read this post replied with a " mine does that ".

Anybody ?

Les
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roy4matra
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« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2009, 02:19:57 am »


Regardless of all that, you have not yet, and I would be grateful if you did, comment on this previous comment...

say I had previously set a ( cruise ) speed of 65mph and applied the resume button at 35 mph on the slip road, I would expect it to change up at the appropriate points without any intervention from me and often it will not do so.

Sorry I missed that.  (scanning your mail too quickly!)  The road conditions would be relevant here, but assuming the road is relatively flat, and that you are in a low gear (2nd or 3rd maybe) activating the resume should cause it to accelerate quite quickly, as a) you are only around half the desired speed and b) being in a low gear it should attempt to resume at quite a brisk pace.  In fact if you were in third I might expect it to drop to second.  If you are closer to the target speed and at a higher starting point (say 70 mph set and resume activated at 60 mph) then I would expect a slower response, possibly staying in gear and just picking up speed to bring it back to the set figure.

If you were in third at 35, and it stayed in that gear, which can comfortably attain the set 65 mph, it might not change up until the set speed is attained, but once at the set speed then it should change up as it is now going to try to cruise at that speed.  So if you are saying that even when it has attained 65 it still doesn't change up, then either the road conditions and sensor readings are leading the computer to keep it in that gear or, yes, there is a problem.

Since you mentioned third gear, sedate acceleration, a violent thump and a downshift from 5th to 3rd, these are all possible indications of going into 'limp home' mode.  These boxes have a 'get-you-home' mode, where after a fault is detected the auto locks into third, and therefore there are no changes and acceleration becomes sedate.  The idea is that 3rd lock-up is low enough with torque convertor to pull away from rest, and high enough to give you a reasonable speed to get you 'home' whether that is to a garage to attend to the fault or your actual destination.  However, this action would be recorded in the computer memory, and as you have no recorded faults, it seems very odd if this is happening.

If this happens a lot, is it possible to repeat it when a technician is in the car, even if you have to drive the section several times?  Or does it always behave when others are present, and only happens at complete random?  I would want to hook up the laptop and take it for a run in record mode and try to capture the data as you then have a trace of what is happening, so that if for unknown reasons it still is not recording the fault in memory or with a warning light, the data would indicate it.  The data I would be looking for is gearbox oil pressure, gear selected, torque convertor lock up, input and output speeds, and maybe engine revs.  Renaults system can only cope with six data streams, but you can always change items around to see other data on different runs.

I would have also done a stall test by now - has anyone done one of those, do you know?

Quote
IF, and only as a suggestion, IF, the transmission load input was not in the expected/normal range this might have serious consequences in which map it chooses to use and it could be waiting for a value, ( that it never gets,)  before "it" wants to command a gear change.

Quite possible that these are not a set of circumstances sufficient to throw a MIL, the system is obviously capable of correcting levels ( fuel trims etc ) sufficiently to meet the current emission tests for a MOT.

Since you have a private CAN link between the Injection and Gearbox computers, any faults in either should be being picked up, and memorised in one or both.  The only time a fault is not recorded in my experience, is when the fault is so quick and transient, that it is simply ignored.  That is not the case here so I don't see why it fails to record anything if there is a fault.

One final question.  How much mileage has the car done, and have the spark plugs been changed?  If they have, are they only the Renault specified plugs?  If they are anything else, please change them to the Renault specified plugs.  In fact even if they have not been changed and they are the Renault plugs, I might suggest buying a new set and putting them in, and trying it again.  (you can always keep the others for later use, and they are not a great cost)

To explain, on earlier models, I have experienced lots of random faults with an auto gearbox, simply because it had non-standard plugs!  Every time we put them back to Renault plugs, the 'faults' disappeared.  It was a common enough fault to be known by older personnel and was a suspect interference problem.  Again though you normally did get a fault recorded in memory.  However, I have never heard of it on the new Espace IV but it might be worth a try...

Roy
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« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2009, 07:21:02 pm »

I hope now you can see why I have continued to remark about cheating/forcing it to change up when it hangs in a lower gear when you anticipate it should have changed up.

I have never been able to explain to myself the point of the ability to store the drivers style of driving ( auto programing ) and rewriting it to the ECU every 100 miles ( or maybe 100 klm ) but the dealer can, and has, reset this data several times, and Tom Stallvik also suggested I should reset them, It's maybe an auto only thing and they could be responsible for the rate of acceleration from a resume, and as I tend to accelerate a bit "sedately" maybe it uses my "style", my point being that it does not take off like a bat out of h--l but accelerates in a way I'm comfortable with.

I have driven a few rentals in the USA and I was always surprised in the way they accelerated from a resume, frightening sometimes, perhaps I did not notice a change in this performance towards the end of the hire.

The 5th to 3rd followed by very rapid acceleration only occurs now when resuming a previous 55mph cruse setting from 53mph, and then not always.

79,300 now, has had the 72,000 service which as you know includes all the filters and the cam belt, the dealer changed the spark plugs on my first visit as he was also aware of interference issues, it did not have Renault plugs but it does now,  and for the record cost £16.40 each !, ( they made no noticeable difference ) he has also checked the pressures on the gearbox with a gauge and found them to be correct, I have had other Auto Specialist test drive it and their view is that the gearbox it not faulty as the fault would be more consistent.

Customer Services view is that the gearbox is faulty and as no Renault dealer is trained to repair them they want the dealer to remove and refit the gearbox at a cost of £850.00, send it to Autotrans ( who do all their gearbox warrantee work ) for repair at a further cost.

I asked CS, if when the gearbox was refitted the fault was still apparent would they refund the £1000.00 or so, as clearly that would have been proven not to have be the problem, to be told, No, they would consider the problems to be a "feature" of this model car.

It's not only my scantool that is not showing any stored errors, the dealer says the Renault clip does not show any either.

Previously I had included in the post a recorded output from my scantool and I am able to graph this data but without an indication of which gear it is in I can't locate the position in the log where ( or when, or if ) the issues occurs, rpm against mph against load is not quite enough.

I think I should change the transmission load sensor as it's value is low, can often be zero and also sometimes no value at all and always different from the Engine value, I accept that this is possibly invalid ODB data but I have always thought it is a likely cause and nobody has come up with a better idea yet.

Where are the 2 load sensors ?,

What are they really called ?,

Finding a copy of the correct manual ( yes, even buying another one ) would be a great start, the one I got from Peter Russek was of no help. ( F4R engine to 2005 )

When I asked my dealer for a price to replace the sensor it he asked me where it was on the car. !

I'm still intrigued that it looks as though the fuel trims data is not available to a Renault Clip tool, which I find difficult to believe as many ODB scantools show them and that data appears to be fundamental to the performance of the engine, if they are that far out and the Clip does not read them then it won't show an error either.

Les.
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roy4matra
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« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2009, 11:31:09 pm »

I hope now you can see why I have continued to remark about cheating/forcing it to change up when it hangs in a lower gear when you anticipate it should have changed up.

When you first described the problem it sounded like you expected it to change up when you lifted the throttle, whereas these boxes will not do that.  Conventional autos will, but not Renault ones.  If you only lift it will stay in that gear.  You must push the throttle again after the slight lift to get it to change up and this is simply not required with other makes, at least not with all those I have driven.

So I still say that the term forcing or cheating is wrong.  This is how they are programmed to work so it is the correct method.  However, what I'm beginning to understand I think is that what you have is not really this, but a totally different problem, and again I come back to the fact that without driving it, as this is a totally new problem to me, I cannot judge it simply by description.  This is something I need to experience.

Quote
I have never been able to explain to myself the point of the ability to store the drivers style of driving (auto programing) and rewriting it to the ECU every 100 miles (or maybe 100 klm) but the dealer can, and has, reset this data several times, and Tom Stallvik also suggested I should reset them...

The ability to store the drivers style I find is actually useful, and you should NOT be resetting it in my opinion.  Strictly there are seven settings or laws, and the standard is in the middle, so if you reset it, it goes to that particular set of parameters.  If you have a sedate or slow style it will move towards the 'soft end' of the seven 'laws' as they are called internally, and if you have a faster style it will move towards the 'performance end' of the scale.  This means that say for a fast driver, it will stay in a lower gear and allow you to use more revs before changing, which will suit their style more than the norm, and for someone with a more sedate style, it should change at lower revs and be generally softer.

So after you have driven yours for a while, and let's say it has moved towards the soft end of the scale, which suits your style, if you now reset it, it will go back to the middle, and have to start over again, so why would you want to do that?  I'm not sure who Tom is, but the only reason I can see for telling you to reset it is to get it back to the centre or 'norm' but if this is not your style then why change?  It is only going to move back after a while.  This is not your problem anyway, since if you consider it, at the softer end of the scale it should change up more easily, which is what you want but are not getting, and moving it back to the middle (or more rapid end of the scale) will delay the changes, which you definitely do not want!

I'm a quick driver generally, and I like the fact that after a short period of driving the auto box has changed to suit my style.  In your case I assume it is moving to the soft end of the scale which is what you want, but the box is not changing at all at times if I understand you correctly, so this has nothing to do with the style programmes.  By the way, have they actually checked that it has moved towards the softer programmes correctly and not in the opposite direction?

Quote
I have driven a few rentals in the USA and I was always surprised in the way they accelerated from a resume, frightening sometimes, perhaps I did not notice a change in this performance towards the end of the hire.

The 5th to 3rd followed by very rapid acceleration only occurs now when resuming a previous 55mph cruse setting from 53mph, and then not always.

This makes no sense at all.  If the cruise setting is 55 mph and you select 'resume' when it is doing 53 mph in 5th it should not even change gear!  The two speeds are so close that it should simply open the throttle slightly to bring the speed up that 2 mph.  What have Renault (anyone there) said about that point?

As I stated before, it is when the speed difference it greater, as with a previous cruise of say 60 mph and the speed has dropped to 35 mph that you should expect it to not only drop gears but probably take the acceleration to kickdown point or quite heavy throttle anyway, to close the speed difference rapidly.  It is supposed to do that.

Quote
79,300 now, has had the 72,000 service which as you know includes all the filters and the cam belt, the dealer changed the spark plugs on my first visit as he was also aware of interference issues, it did not have Renault plugs but it does now, and for the record cost £16.40 each!

Yes I know Renault prices can be absurd, but at least we have eliminated that possibility however, slight.  As I said I have never heard of an Espace 4 having that problem either.

Quote
He has also checked the pressures on the gearbox with a gauge and found them to be correct...

This should have eliminated a possible fault with the pressure sensor, but then if the problem only occurs randomly, and it was not there when being checked it actually proves very little.

Quote
I have had other Auto Specialist test drive it and their view is that the gearbox it not faulty as the fault would be more consistent.

Not sure that is a given, if we are dealing with an intermittent fault, but if the specialist knows his Renault autos, he should be able to tell if it seems normal or not.

Quote
Customer Services view is that the gearbox is faulty and as no Renault dealer is trained to repair them they want the dealer to remove and refit the gearbox at a cost of £850.00, send it to Autotrans (who do all their gearbox warrantee work) for repair at a further cost.

That is normal Renault practice.  Autotrans do all the diagnosis and repairs, the dealer does the tests and supplies the data.  I can understand why, since when I was trained to diagnose and repair autos, it was stressed that the workshop where you do the repair has to be almost like an operating theatre, extremely clean so no dirt gets into anything, and there is room for all the pieces, and proper tools etc.  Dealer garages now are hopeless in my opinion, Renault would not even let us have a bench with a cupboard or standard vice on it, and we had nowhere to store removed parts etc.  They are no longer equipped to do repairs and in fact rarely do any overhauls anymore.  No engine or gearbox rebuilds...

If it needs an overhaul, the only option is a replacement unit.  And since Renault no longer supply things like oversize pistons or undersize shells, they can't overhaul anyway.  If it is worn, it is effectively scrap, as far as Renault is concerned.

Quote
I asked CS, if when the gearbox was refitted the fault was still apparent would they refund the £1000.00 or so, as clearly that would have been proven not to have be the problem, to be told, No, they would consider the problems to be a "feature" of this model car.

As I said before, I would be wary of customer services, as they are not technically minded, and whilst they might agree with you that they think it is faulty - but what is their reason?  What basis do they come up with that judgement?  Have they driven it?  If not forget them.  It has to be diagnosed as faulty by either Autotrans, or technical, and authorised by them before any repair or replacement.  Since one common replacement that the dealers do carry out, is to fit a new valve block, has this been tried?  This is like the manual side of the 'brain' that controls the auto box.  Often they start with replacing that to see if this cures the fault.  If even this hasn't been tried, then I suspect no-one believes you have a fault at all.

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It's not only my scantool that is not showing any stored errors, the dealer says the Renault clip does not show any either.

Which is why, without any actual road test myself, it suggests you don't have a problem, but it is the way the Renault box works.  However, certain things, like that dropping gears to accelerate from 53 to 55 mph don't stack up.

It definitely needs to be driven and the problems or what you consider are problems, have to be experienced by someone who really understands these gearboxes.  And often even some RTE's do not in my opinion.  It has to be a Renault tech. from the U.K. technical dept.

Quote
Previously I had included in the post a recorded output from my scantool and I am able to graph this data but without an indication of which gear it is in I can't locate the position in the log where (or when, or if) the issues occurs, rpm against mph against load is not quite enough.

I think I should change the transmission load sensor as it's value is low, can often be zero and also sometimes no value at all and always different from the Engine value, I accept that this is possibly invalid ODB data but I have always thought it is a likely cause and nobody has come up with a better idea yet.

Where are the 2 load sensors ?


When I tried to complete this the programme complained I had exceeded a set number of characters, so you will have to read the rest in the follow up!


Roy
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 12:30:34 am by roy4matra » Logged

roy4matra
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« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2009, 12:36:00 am »

This is the follow up or continuation as the programme complained the original was too long!

Where are the 2 load sensors ?

I've no idea since the first thing I would need to do is consult the manual on the exact engine and box you have, and for that I need more info. - V.I.N., vehicle Fab. No., Engne and Gearbox type and Fab. Nos. which if I worked for Renault, I could get direct from their world database, but I don't so I cannot.

If you can provide them, I will check against my copy of Dialogys but bear in mind mine is now about 18 months old.  Renault don't do one manual, but have sections for different areas, so section 2 covers gearboxes, and if I have the pdf for your particular box, I will check it.

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Finding a copy of the correct manual ( yes, even buying another one ) would be a great start, the one I got from Peter Russek was of no help. ( F4R engine to 2005 )

The engine will be F4R xxx and the latter (xxx) is important as is the Fab. No. because things change and they do update notes for these.  So you need not only the manual but all the update notes too.

Quote
When I asked my dealer for a price to replace the sensor it he asked me where it was on the car. !

I'm not surprised.  As I stated earlier, dealers no longer do certain jobs, so why waste money training people with skills they will not use.  If they are never going to overhaul a gearbox, why bother to know one...

The system works like this: Car comes in with a fault.  Technician road tests to confirm fault, and if it has one, emails details to Autotrans.  They then ask for certain tests to be done, and data recorded, and that is emailed to them.  Autotrans now studies data and decides on course of action, and tells dealer what must be done.  Dealer carries this out and reports back if successful or not.  If not, repeat steps above, until right.  If warranty is involved there are extra steps as they have to agree to costs.  Personally I think it is crazy but I was taught to do my own diagnosis and repairs back in the days when things were done properly. :-)  You should be able to see from the above why the technicians know so little about these things really.

Quote
I'm still intrigued that it looks as though the fuel trims data is not available to a Renault Clip tool, which I find difficult to believe as many ODB scantools show them...

First the term fuel trim does not even exist in Renault, either in the manuals, training, or on Clip.  So if you start talking fuel trim data with anyone at Renault they won't know what you are on about.  Clip can display certain data relating to fuel but whether these are the same as your fuel trim data is debatable.  It is not required because the information the RTE requires as per his training and therefore understanding is all available on Clip.

Also as I stated, Renault does not conform to OBD or EOBD, so there is no point coming up with figures from a scan tool that is OBD compliant, since how can you compare it with the Renault data?

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... and that data appears to be fundamental to the performance of the engine, if they are that far out and the Clip does not read them then it won't show an error either.

Not quite right.  Renault has it's own software and Clip tool to read the data, and if any of the parameters are out, it 'knows' that they don't match what they are supposed to, so it will flag a fault or faults, possibly in more than one computer depending on the fault.  A fault in black on screen is being flagged by the computer you are reading, whilst a fault in blue is coming from another computer.

So you think you have an error in these fuel trims, but how do you know that these figures are what they purport to be as you are using a tool not designed or approved by Renault to work with their software or hardware.


Les, because this is getting so long, I had major problems even trying to complete this.  Also I am going to be away next week as mechanical backup on a European rally, so will not be able to continue, even assuming it is worth continuing, since I can't see we can achieve anything.  You can take it to private email if you wish - the email to use is on my website (see below) but I won't be around for a couple of weeks.

Roy
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 12:49:26 am by roy4matra » Logged

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