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Author Topic: 27,000 miles of trouble free motoring comes to an end  (Read 5701 times)
Martin Tyas
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Espace, because it's worth it!


« on: September 01, 2009, 01:41:21 pm »

I have a bald patch from scratching my head over this one.

I have a noise that appears to be coming from the left rear of the JE0K that is speed related and becomes evident from about 25mph (40kph) so one would assume wheel bearing or brakes. It's not a whine more of a low level rumbling sound with slight vibration. It's difficult to tell where it's coming from sat in the driver's seat other than it seems to be from the rear but passengers in the rear-most seats say they think left rear. So had a back seat ride and thought the same.
I wondered at first if it was the exhaust but there is no evidence of a leak or internal baffles having come adrift. Also by taking the car out of gear and allowing it to coast unpowered the noise is still there so not engine related.

I fitted new disks and pads 7,000 miles ago but stripped them again and made sure that the handbrake cable isn't sticking and holding on the pads and I also wound back the piston again to make sure that wasn't sticking. Also checked that the disk is not cracked and there is no run-out.

The inner of the two wheel bearings was very slightly rougher than the outer but not apparently noisy when I spun the wheel although that was obviously very low speed revolutions compared to road speed. But I fitted a new hub and bearings anyway just to be sure... no change with the noise.

I've also checked the coil springs and shock absorbers... all intact. No leaks or misting on the shockers and no apparent bounce suggesting that they could be on their way out and I was getting wheel osillations due to lack of damping and it was that causing the noise and slight vibration.

I checked the suspension bushes and all sound and intact.

I checked the tyres for foreign objects and all clear. The tread was well down but no feathering on the Continental's as I had with the Michelin's that were on from new and so nothing to suggest that I was getting an uneven ride from the tyres. But because they were down to 2mm I changed them anyway... and still no difference to the rumble from the rear.

I also checked the front wheels and as far I can tell, without taking the brake pads out so that there is totally free rotation and to avoid any pad noise, the front bearings are OK and no apparent noise from the drive shafts.
The mystery continues.

I have also found that the injector replaced by a Renault dealer 27,000 miles ago could never have been re-seated properly as there has been some blow-by that eventually became evident with the crystallised carbon having built up above the level of the head and now visible. So I have the carbon build up to remove, the injector to remove and then no doubt have to re-cut the seat and replace the copper washer on the injector. Of course I will also have to replace the steel tube between the injector and common rail to be sure of re-sealing and to accommodate the 23,000 psi (1585 bar) working pressure in the injection system. But as it is No1 injector and being a RH drive to get at it I will have to remove the wiper arms and skuttle panel in order to remove the wiper mechanism complete and also the air filter housing and oil filler extension before getting anywhere near it. I just hope that having done so I can get the injector out with all that carbon having built up around it and little room above it to use anything other than the Renault injector removal tool.

Deep joy!!

Martin

« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 11:19:03 am by Martin Tyas » Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2009, 10:24:43 pm »

I have a bald patch from scratching my head over this one.

Just an idea: Have you tried swapping wheels? This could be a defective tyre (now that you've tried everything else).

Quote
The mystery continues.

A friend of mine with a Scénic 1.9 dCi had a new engine installed due to a bottom end failure (after only 4 years!), and it had a misfit injector too. This was even done in the factory, where TWO copper washers had been fitted instead of one. Needless to say, it ran pretty badly until this was fixed.

Quote
Deep joy!!

I think you're ironic here... Wink

Good luck with it, Martin! You just have to get to it, and get it done, I'm afraid. You knew that already, of course.

/Anders  Cool
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Martin Tyas
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 271


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2009, 04:07:35 pm »

Just an idea: Have you tried swapping wheels? This could be a defective tyre (now that you've tried everything else).

Good thought Anders but I already have swapped the wheels...... completely.
I wasn't going to mention it within this thread but my existing alloys were getting in need of refurbishment due to paint/powder coat flaking off the inside of the spokes and inner rim. I had been looking for some reasonable priced steel wheels with tyres so that I could keep mobile whilst having the wheels professionally stripped, bead blasted and re-painted but hadn't come across any and all 4 tyres were getting low so I was getting to the point of being forced to do something... even if it meant leaving the car blocked up whilst the wheels were being refurbished.
However in the meantime I came across a set of new 18" Renault Sport wheels for a Phase 4. The PCD is identical between Phase 3 and 4 the only difference is that the original wheels were ET45 and the Phase 4 Sport wheels are ET50... so in other words 5mm more inset. But I checked the clearance and no issues and thought I would go for them as they were little more expensive than having my existing wheels reburbished. My existing tyres had been 225/55 x 16 and so I worked out that 225/45 x18's would provide a rolling circumference within 0.9% of the original tyres so no real speedo reading, ABS or gear ratio issues. Also 5mm spacers are readily available if once fitted I found that it adversely affected the steeering having 5mm more inset. I obviously anticipated a firmer ride due to the lower profile tyre. So, not only has it had new tyres I have also got new wheels that were balanced.
I find that the ride is not that noticebly firmer on reasonably well finished road surfaces. Only on rough roads do you notice the difference. The steering is more positive as you would expect due to the lower profile but the thing I have noticed is that there is some oversteer if pushed a little agressively in to a bend so I may try some 5mm spacers to bring the inset back to original. I will get my original "The Race" wheels refurbished at some point.

A friend of mine with a Scénic 1.9 dCi had a new engine installed due to a bottom end failure (after only 4 years!), and it had a misfit injector too. This was even done in the factory, where TWO copper washers had been fitted instead of one. Needless to say, it ran pretty badly until this was fixed.

My tool box has had to grow by necessity... a 120mm long T30 torx bit to get down to the injector flange bolts and a 17mm crowfoot ring spanner for the injector pipe unions to ensure that I can torque them correctly and also have an injector seat re-cutter coming. I just hope that I can get the injector out.

Quote
Deep joy!!

I think you're ironic here... Wink

You've got it Anders... a trait of the English I'm afraid that is often missed by other nationalities


Good luck with it, Martin! You just have to get to it, and get it done, I'm afraid. You knew that already, of course.

Thanks Anders... I will keep you posted as to the outcomes

Martin
« Last Edit: September 04, 2009, 11:22:49 am by Martin Tyas » Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2009, 05:59:43 pm »

Just an idea: Have you tried swapping wheels? This could be a defective tyre (now that you've tried everything else).

Good thought Anders but I already have swapped the wheels...... completely.

Of course you have Wink

You didn't replace the rear shocks, did you? I would try them next if I was you. They do get worn (ours were), and there could be a slight bit of play in the shaft that makes it rattle.

It's interesting to hear about your experience with 18 inch rims. You don't mention what tyres (brand and type) you have fitted? I have run Pirelli P7 for the last couple of years and I find they suit the car well. They tend to get a flat spot when the car is parked for a few days, but it usually only takes a few km of driving to cure it. Dynamically, the car is well balanced I think.

I think you're ironic here... Wink

You've got it Anders... a trait of the English I'm afraid that is often missed by other nationalities
[/quote]

Probably not that often by Danes then, I would think. I think we invented irony and sarcasm Grin

/Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Martin Tyas
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 271


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2009, 10:16:47 pm »

You didn't replace the rear shocks, did you? I would try them next if I was you. They do get worn (ours were), and there could be a slight bit of play in the shaft that makes it rattle.

I ordered a pair of new shocks and they arrived yesterday Anders but I haven't had opportunity to fit them yet. Hopefully tomorrow. Although no sign of leakage or misting and the ride is still OK they have covered almost 160,000km so they are long overdue a rest anyway.

It's interesting to hear about your experience with 18 inch rims. You don't mention what tyres (brand and type) you have fitted? I have run Pirelli P7 for the last couple of years and I find they suit the car well. They tend to get a flat spot when the car is parked for a few days, but it usually only takes a few km of driving to cure it. Dynamically, the car is well balanced I think.

I have had good experience with ride, road holding, wet weather handling, minimal road noise and longevity using Continental ContiPremiumContact 2's and so looked to stay with Continental if I could. Obviously with needing to go for a 45 aspect ratio tyre you are into the realms of sports tyres... black elastic bands. I went for a Continental ContiSportContact 3. In order to get an adequate load rating of 95 I had to go for the W speed rated tyre which is a reinforced extra load tyre also with rim protection lip.
Of course I will not quite fully utilise the 270 kph speed rating  Sad

After I next give it a clean I'll post some pictures now that I've "pimped my ride"

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Martin Tyas
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 271


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2009, 11:21:52 am »

I fitted the new shocks yesterday Anders... no difference... still getting the slight rumbling noise above 40kph and still seeming to be coming from left rear that already had new hub and bearing set fitted.

With the wheels/tyres, suspension bushings, brake disks and brake binding having been ruled out the only thing it could realistically be was the right rear bearing and the noise/vibration being transmitted across the axle beam but yet with the brake pads out allowing total free rotation the bearings felt fine. So it had to be that the bearings were starting to fail and that load and speed induced the noise and that it sounded worse due to resonating across the axle beam.
So I changed the hub and bearing set on the right rear and that particular problem is now solved.

So now I have to tackle the injector removal and re-seating to cure the Renault dealer induced problem.

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2009, 10:58:19 pm »

So I changed the hub and bearing set on the right rear and that particular problem is now solved.

Hooray! Congratulations. That's very good to hear. And you have been looking at the wrong side all along! Very well found, Martin.

Quote
So now I have to tackle the injector removal and re-seating to cure the Renault dealer induced problem.

Good luck with it! Smiley

/Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Martin Tyas
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 271


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2009, 12:59:31 pm »

I finally got around to posting the pictures of the replacement wheels and tyres I fitted Anders.
The rims came in Renault boxes with a Renault part number but are made for Renault by OZ Racing. When I was last in the local Renault dealership I enquired about Renault badged centres for them but the ones they had in stock were 2mm too small...  but I will re-visit that issue with them again when I have more time. I had to laugh when my 83 year old father saw them for the first time and asked "why does it say NO in the centre of the wheels?"... the wheel he was looking at happened to be in a position where the centre cap was rotated 90 degress from the horizontal  Grin

As advised previously I fitted 225/45 x 18 Continental ContiSport3 tyres, the rolling circumference of which I determined was within 0.89% of the original 225/55 x 16, so no major issues requiring re-programming the ABS to a different tyre size to get the speedo reading corrected.

The ride is obviously firmer due to the lower profile tyres and road noise slightly increased but that is totally dependent upon the road surface. On the better quality road surfaces there is no noticeable difference.
I find that there a little oversteer if pushed agressively into a corner but I may try 5mm spacers when I get some time in order to get the inset back to the 45mm as on the original rims compared to these that are for a current production Series 4 tin-box Espace and are ET50 (50mm inset).

I have been too busy to yet tackle the blow-by induced by the Renault dealer after they (badly) fitted a new injector.

Martin
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 08:30:27 am by Martin Tyas » Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2009, 05:01:40 pm »

I finally got around to posting the pictures of the replacement wheels and tyres I fitted Anders.

They look really good. Very funny about your dad reading "NO" on the rim Wink

18" is quite a larger rim than the 16" original and I'm not surprised that the comfort is slightly reduced on rough roads. My first Espace was a (short) 1997 JE0A, this was fitted with 195-65R15 wheels, and I actually never found it lacking any roadholding. Being leighter too than my current Grand Espace V6, I think it was actually a bit more fun around corners.

The 225 tyres add quite bit more contact with the road, but primarily, it adds width to the contact patch, which in my experience means that it picks up more road noise and roubble. I suppose also, that a wide tyre like the 225 has to have a stiffer carcass to support the tyre than a 195, and this will also reduce comfort.

Anyway, I'll stick with 16" rims now. I've been thinking about dark grey rims for a while - they are in fashion and go quite well with light cars like my silver Espace. 17" rims would have been an alternative, and not that much larger, but tyres in 225-50R17 are for some reason quite a bit more expensive than the 225-55R16. I'm going to keep the current set of summer tyres (Pirelli P7) as they can do at least one more season, and move the winter tyres (Michelin PA2) over to the original alloy "The Race" rims. I've liked the look of the original rims, but they are a horror to clean. This is another benefit of dark rims: You won't notice they're dirty Wink

Here's the rim I'm going to order - it's a Borbet LV5:
http://www.borbet.de/de/produkte/raeder/borbet/lv5_rad.php?history=2



/Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
renaultbiler
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« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2009, 05:30:08 pm »

What is the inset on original 16" alloys ?
The steel winter rims on our Espace is ET50 and i cannot find any notice on the Boutique 17" summer rims - perhaps its on the inside when i take them off.
I am looking for 16" alloys for the winter tires as the steel rims corrode heavily.
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
Martin Tyas
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 271


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2009, 05:54:24 pm »

The original alloys I had on my Espace they called "Estoril" which Renault fitted to "The Race".... one of those packaged specification editions. It is a 2002 JE0K and the rims are ET45. In the case of the Estorils the rim size and the inset are cast into the alloy behind one of the spokes.

Mine came fitted new with 225/55 R 16 Michelin Pilot Primacy and the rims are 7J. The new alloys I fitted are 71/2J but I still went for 225's and just reduced the aspect ratio from 55 to 45 in order to get as near as possible to the same rolling circumference as the orignal tyres. Also the 225/45ZR18's were available with a load rating of 95... the same as the original factory fitted Michelin's and have a rim protection bead. They were quite expensive at £593 for the set of 4 but having said that I needed 4 new tyres anyway and was quoted £548 for a set of four 225/55R16 Continental's if I would have had the original rims reburbished instead.

I know what you mean about cleaning "The Race" style wheels Anders. My old 5 series has cross spoke rims and so has multiple little spokes and holes to clean. To look after them BMW introduced a set of 3 brushes specifically for alloy wheels and they are still selling them to this day. The one I use most is tapered & curved and so is ideal for cleaning between spokes but also for reaching in to the inner part of the rim. I am still finding them very useful with the new wheels because although they are more open and so easier to clean between the spokes you do need to clean the inside of the rim because it is so visible.

Martin
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 06:26:36 pm by Martin Tyas » Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2009, 10:29:08 pm »

Tom, according to the CoC document on my car, the original rims are inset 42 mm.

A Pirelli P7 in 225/55-R16 is 890 DKK from my favorite online tyre shop, whereas they charge 1516 DKK for a Pzero in 225/45-R18, and even 1574 DKK for your Conti's! Rightfully, they do have a Dunlop SP tyre at 1179 DKK, but it's still a good deal more. That's 110£ for the P7, 187£ for the Pzero, 195£ for the Conti, and 146£ for the Dunlop. So I'd say you've found a very good offer there Martin! Smiley

Interesting note about the BMW brushes! I have to say, though, that my original Murena rims are even worse cleaning than the "Estoril" rims. For them I have a small round brush (not unlike a bottle cleaning brush), and even that can't do them properly. They are hopeless Sad

/Anders
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 10:31:51 pm by Anders Dinsen » Logged

'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Martin Tyas
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 271


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2009, 12:35:55 pm »

Tom... I've attached a picture of the size and inset data from the inside of the "Estoril" style alloys as fitted to "The Race" versions... in my case a JE0K. And you will see from the photograph the reason they needed either changing or refurbishing. They are in very good condition on the outside but heavy oxidisation on the insides

Anders... whilst I was in the garage I took a picture of the BMW wheel rim brush set. The curved one is the one that gets used most as you will see.... but it is about 3 years old.
The BMW part number is 83190395819 if you are interested.

Martin
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 12:38:08 pm by Martin Tyas » Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Drejci
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Posts: 8


« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2009, 11:34:02 pm »

For cleaning alloys on my car and bike I use Sonax Xtreme gel. It does quite a good job.



P.S.: glanced at the Borbet site posted above and found set of beautifull rims for my Avantime. Will have to think about switching from 17" to 18"
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