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Author Topic: 2.2dCi cooling fan  (Read 5292 times)
Martin Tyas
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Posts: 271


Espace, because it's worth it!


« on: July 04, 2010, 06:47:51 pm »

I was doing some inner city driving the other day whilst the traffic was terrible and the ambient temperature 25 degrees. Having to concentrate on the traffic and navigate my way around the city I hadn't spotted the temperature gauge rising and before realising the overheat warning came on.

I've since checked the fuse and connections but all OK so I connected the fan motor directly to a battery to check that because it wasn't kicking in when I switched on the air-con either. With the air-con on the fan should run constantly.
Anyway, having hot wired the motor it did turn the fan slowly but not for long so it seems that the motor needs replacing.
I checked the 2010 Dialogys to find that the motor and the plastic fan come together under one part number at the astronomical cost of £192 plus VAT.

I haven't got it out yet to look for a manufacturer identity and their part number to see if it is possible to buy the motor only from other than Renault. Looking at it quickly so far it seems that most of the front of the car will need to come off to be able to remove the fan shroud from the radiator so that the fan can be removed from the motor and then the motor from the shroud.

It comes just after having to have a new exhaust. The original was generally in very good condition and would have lasted much longer had it not fatigue cracked at the joint to the down pipe. Having looked at it initially without having the car on a lift or ramp it looked as though I could have had a short section of pipe made with a flair and weld it to the existing pipe then just rejoin it to the front pipe. But on further investigation I found that the front down-pipe was also cracked at the other side of the joint. Out of curiosity I priced the main exhaust and the downpipe with secondary CAT. The main exhaust system is £421 plus VAT and the short down-pipe with CAT is an incredible £800.86 as is the primary CAT that sits on the turbo.
So needless to say Renault didn't get the parts order and I had instead a stainless steel system made and fitted at less than the price Renault wanted for the just the back section.

Martin
« Last Edit: July 04, 2010, 11:33:24 pm by Martin Tyas » Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2010, 06:36:10 am »

Hi Martin

I'm afraid our belowed Espace's have become "cash cows" for Renault. And Matra, as they still distribute the spares that are unique to the Espace. Some time ago, I found this German company, and while I don't think the quality of the parts they sell will quite match Renault/Matra's, their price is often a third or less of the original.

http://auto-innovation.de/

I just tried searching for the fans - select "Fahrzeugsuche", then Renault -> Espace III and your model. Under "Produktkategorien", select "Kühlung" and "Lüfter" and they will display two. Unfortunately, neither are priced ("Preis und verfügbarkeit auf anfrage"), but they have been quite helpful with me, so why not try to write them on info@auto-innovation.de ?

Good luck!

/Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Martin Tyas
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 271


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2010, 08:37:46 am »

Thank you Anders, I will take a look.

Last night I also tried a couple of on-line suppliers that I've used before in the UK and who supply either OEM made parts (such as Valeo lighting components and  wipers as well as Purflux filters) or OEM quality alternatives.
They have a motor and fan assembly listed at a quarter of the price of the Renault unit but I will have to double check that it is suitable for my particular car. From the picture on the web site it looks the same overall even though the motor appears to be slightly different. So there could be a solution there too.

Regarding parts from Renault. I know quite well the parts manager at a local Renault dealer and he said that availability is also becoming a major issue on Matra-specific items as well as price. His father has a JEOK so he is seeing first hand the way things are going. So as these get older and worth less second hand it will become increasingly difficult to keep them going.
And of course if there are issues with major components, or those requiring heavy duty diagnostic time spending on them, the cost very quickly escalates to more than the vehicle is worth. Due to work commitments I have spent less time contributing on the forum than I used to but having still dropped in regularly I have noticed quite a substantial drop-off in Espace related posts. That tends to indicate, as well as the reduced numbers seen on the roads, that the Matra built Espace is accelerating into becoming the preserve of the enthusiast.

Martin
« Last Edit: July 05, 2010, 09:53:25 am by Martin Tyas » Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Martin Tyas
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 271


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2010, 03:11:05 pm »

Hi Anders,

Although the unit I had found over here looked the same I had to check to be sure and found that it was intended for a II and not Espace III according to the Renault part number to which is was cross referred on the supplier's system. On their technical information they did not have the motor specification so even if it was the same dimensionally it may not have been up to the job. The motor that is fitted is 460 watt.

So, I've dropped Auto-Innovation an e-mail enquiry and hope that they come back with favourable price and availability.

In the meantime I also checked with my Renault dealer regarding stock availability if I am forced to go that route. No stock in UK or France but they can order from Matra and it will take about 7 days. The dealer parts manager said that is another thing that is happening with the parts for the Matra built Espaces. Renault are stocking very few of the parts that are Matra-specific. So part numbers with 6025 as the first 4 out of the 10 digit part number are often having to come from Matra and in to Renault France before being shipped on to the dealer through the distribution chain.

Martin
« Last Edit: July 05, 2010, 06:18:07 pm by Martin Tyas » Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2010, 08:21:53 pm »

So, I've dropped Auto-Innovation an e-mail enquiry and hope that they come back with favourable price and availability.

In the meantime I also checked with my Renault dealer regarding stock availability if I am forced to go that route. No stock in UK or France but they can order from Matra and it will take about 7 days. The dealer parts manager said that is another thing that is happening with the parts for the Matra built Espaces. Renault are stocking very few of the parts that are Matra-specific. So part numbers with 6025 as the first 4 out of the 10 digit part number are often having to come from Matra and in to Renault France before being shipped on to the dealer through the distribution chain.

I hope the German connection will be able to help there. Do keep us posted.

My Renault parts supplier has noticed the same as yours. Apine parts are the same: Those numbers are always more expensive and have longer delivery times. I find it hard to understand why a part should take more than a week to go from Romoratin to any place in Europe, even if you're ready to pay extra for rapid delivery, as I have experienced with some parts. And the price can sometimes not even be estimated before delivery!

/Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
renaultbiler
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« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2010, 09:41:39 pm »

Alpine parts will somehow "always" be made by someone since its a collectors car and many of them still going plus owners pay whatever required for parts - and many owners source parts elsewhere than the dealer already. This will sadly not be the case with Espace since it have a limited numbers of owners keeping the car for historical reasons, and the car will as a consequence "stop to exist" at one point... its ofcourse worst with the spesific electric parts, mechanical parts are often available from one source or another or have a cross reference with other Renault models.

In Norway the Espace JE is still priced high (?) and a "big" volume still running on the roads. Very few ended on the scrapyard yet. The price range is from 3000 euros for objects that needs attention (97/98 models) upto 15000 euros for latest models in good shape.

As for the fan unit its not that big fuzz to get it out, you drop it down but i think you will need to drop the radiator aswell. Perhaps you can lirk around to separate it easier.
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2010, 06:22:38 am »

I don't think you should worry. Go to France and check out how many are still on the road. Go to Germany and scrap one. Look to eBay for Espace parts - there has never been more. There wouldn't be if there wasn't a market.

In Denmark, the Espace is also a relatively popular family van. You just won't find another used car with such class and good looks. If you only have two kids, you'll aim for a used Audi A4. More kids: I'm sure many are dreaming of an Espace. And they're selling now again on the used car markets.

/Anders Smiley
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Martin Tyas
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 271


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2010, 10:24:06 am »

As for the fan unit its not that big fuzz to get it out, you drop it down but i think you will need to drop the radiator aswell. Perhaps you can lirk around to separate it easier.

Yes Tom, the easiest way looks to be to drop the lower cross member that supports the radiator... the one which the front 4 bolts of the engine under-tray go into. The fan shroud has two bolts accessible through the upper cross member. Hopefully I can make enough room to separate the fan shroud from the radiator to allow the fan and motor to come out between the two but it will probably need the fan unbolting from the motor shaft first to make it easier for them to come out separately. If not then I will drain the cooling system and drop the radiator complete. The coolant has been in 4 years so is overdue being ready for changing anyway.
First, I have to get the parts!

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Martin Tyas
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 271


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2010, 09:00:55 pm »

Anders, Auto Innovation did not reply to my enquiry that I made in both English and German and so as I am unable to find an alternative source for the fan motor I have swallowed hard and ordered one from Renault ~ but with some discount!!
Thanks anyway, it was worth a try.

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Anders Dinsen
Administrator
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« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2010, 10:42:02 pm »

I'm sorry to hear that, Martin. I understand your disposition perfectly - you need to move on. Good luck with the fitting!

/Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Martin Tyas
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 271


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2010, 11:18:55 am »

Well Anders, Renault have surprised me in a very positive way this morning.

Despite showing no stock in either UK or France and the fan and motor supposed to take 7 days to come from Matra, I just received a call from the Renault dealer to advise that the parts had arrived with them this morning.
Shocked but Grin Grin Grin

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Martin Tyas
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 271


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2010, 06:38:14 pm »

Rather interestingly the box in which the fan and motor arrived still had some Matra paperwork attached that included the price to Renault.

Matra charge Renault €uro 62.59.
The retail price from Renault in the UK on today's exchange rate is €uro 231.08 before adding VAT

So,  €uro 168.49 gross margin between Renault and the dealer. Yes, there is carriage and overheads but I wish I could operate my business based upon uplifting supplier prices by 369%

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
renaultbiler
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« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2010, 08:29:32 pm »

We should definitively try to get parts arrangements directly from Matra then.....
I guess Renault SA buy it from Matra, then sell it on to Renault UK with margin, they again sell it to the local dealer with margin. Local dealer sell it to you with margin. Meaning the final price is expencive....
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2010, 10:30:56 pm »

I agree, Tom. Completely. Anyone here fluent in French?

/Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Martin Tyas
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 271


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2010, 11:13:32 pm »

The chances are that there is some contractual agreement between Matra and Renault that prevents Matra selling parts other than through Renault. Those such contracts usually have a fixed time period bulit in ~ most often for a specified number of years after production has ceased.
But it would be interesting, and possible useful, if anyone could find out what the deal now is between Renault and Matra.

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
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