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Author Topic: engine heater  (Read 15663 times)
jack daniels
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« on: December 04, 2010, 01:33:26 pm »

I've noticed in recent mornings that the ice on the hood and the lower windscreen has not been melted as it usually is. Also the cam belt and accessory belt make some noise during the first 2 minutes after a cold start in temperatures under -10.  A measurement of 7.4 Mohms thru the heater element revealed that a new one is due. 88 ohms is what it should be for a 600w heater. For the bargain price of 72 euro, a new Defa block heater is now on its way and hopefully some time before christmas we will have a warm espace, or at least a not so cold espace, again in the mornings.
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Espace, Grand (magnifique, formidable, grandiose, considérable, noble, ample) III  
2002   JE02   F4R  DP0   2.0L 16v auto
fuego
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« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2010, 01:53:51 am »

I am in the process of removing my alternator and will be having it recoditioned. Having following a number of threads and spoken to autoelectricians and had the vehicle tested it would seem that a relay has failed.I have the water cooled 155 amp alternator .One thread suggested that the large output was needed because of the electric heaters on the espace.I have read the owners manual several times but didn't pick up on this fact .Do all espaces have electric heaters .I own a 2007 reg 2.0 T (petrol).
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colin4255
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« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2011, 10:58:56 pm »

I am not sure if they are all fitted with these heaters, but my car is a 2002 2.2 litre Dci JE0K G9T turbo diesel and it has one of those pesky heaters fitted to it. Its a nightmare. I wish I could figure out how to permanently disconnect the thing....
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renaultbiler
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« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2011, 01:07:57 am »

I am not sure if they are all fitted with these heaters, but my car is a 2002 2.2 litre Dci JE0K G9T turbo diesel and it has one of those pesky heaters fitted to it. Its a nightmare. I wish I could figure out how to permanently disconnect the thing....

Simply enter engine management computer with CLIP, enter command mode and configure it "without boiler" and it will never start again Grin
But engine temperature will be affected in cold weather!
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
renaultbiler
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« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2011, 01:10:45 am »

I am in the process of removing my alternator and will be having it recoditioned. Having following a number of threads and spoken to autoelectricians and had the vehicle tested it would seem that a relay has failed.I have the water cooled 155 amp alternator .One thread suggested that the large output was needed because of the electric heaters on the espace.I have read the owners manual several times but didn't pick up on this fact .Do all espaces have electric heaters .I own a 2007 reg 2.0 T (petrol).

Due to numerous electric consumers all together the need for bigger alternators is real.
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
jack daniels
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Posts: 132



« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2011, 04:59:05 pm »

My local ford dealer happily installed the new element for one hours labour cost, it was -18 outside at the time so I didn't fancy lying under the car with coolant running down my arm. Although the work takes about 30 min including driving the car in and out of the workshop, half the cost was waiting for the motor to cool they said
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Espace, Grand (magnifique, formidable, grandiose, considérable, noble, ample) III  
2002   JE02   F4R  DP0   2.0L 16v auto
roy4matra
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« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2011, 07:01:26 pm »

I am in the process of removing my alternator and will be having it recoditioned. Having following a number of threads and spoken to auto electricians and had the vehicle tested it would seem that a relay has failed. I have the water cooled 155 amp alternator. One thread suggested that the large output was needed because of the electric heaters on the espace. I have read the owners manual several times but didn't pick up on this fact. Do all espaces have electric heaters. I own a 2007 reg 2.0 T (petrol).

The answer to your last question is 'No'.

You have a Series IV Renault Espace that has nothing to do with Matra.  These vehicles have a totally different heating system to the Matra Espace I, II, and III which are conventional except for the auxiliary heater on the diesel models.

Explanation:  Diesels use their own engine heat so well and the Espace has such a large interior that on very cold days it would take too long to heat the interior so Matra and Renault decided on the Series III to fit an auxiliary heater (as fitted to truck cabs) to provide additional heating whilst the engine coolant was below 85 degrees (and the outside temp. was below 5 degrees).  These use a small amount of diesel straight from the tank to heat the coolant up more quickly so that the interior can be heated quicker.  Also on common rail diesels (Series III Espace) they use some glow plugs to also heat the coolant!  You will see three or four glow plugs in a block on the left of the engine over the gearbox area.

When Renault took over Espace production and came out with the Series IV they changed the system entirely.  The first thing was the location of the heater - normally the heater matrices are at the front, but this means it takes a long while to get heat to the rear of the interior space.  So on the Series IV they put the heater centrally under the car, so that the interior heat is fed from the centre and all areas should benefit from heat more or less equally.  The second change was that instead of the diesel powered auxiliary heated of the Series III they fitted electric bar heaters (up to 4) which can consume 250 watts each so a max. of 1000 watts!  You can imagine the power these require, so the alternators are extremely high powered units which are water cooled!  I have seen these turning out 172 amps!!  These electric heaters work similar to a home electric fire - you pass current through a resistor, which heats up, and you blow air over it to transfer the heat to the interior.

Obviously the system has to be carefully controlled and therefore the heaters and alternator are managed by the computers - so it will only allow more electric heaters to be switched in providing the alternator can meet the demand.  So you may have only one of two heaters switched in if the engine and alternator are turning too slowly to provide sufficient power for anything more as an example.  These electric heaters are only there to provide heat to the interior whilst the outside air temperature is very low and the engine coolant is also cold (during the period just after starting) and once the normal coolant can provide the heat they are not used.

So the answer by Colin with his Series III has no bearing on your Series IV.  And configuring the auxiliary heater (or boiler) off does not apply to a Series IV which doesn't have that system.  Turning it off on a Series III means it will take longer to get heat to the interior - your choice!  One of the main problems with these auxiliary heaters is lack of maintenance!  They get clogged with carbon, but no one ever cleans them...

Regarding the very high output water cooled alternators - since only certain Espace have them, this is one of the reasons why, when an alternator is changed, you have to use Clip to configure the new alternator in to the system - it has to know what is fitted.

Query - why would you need to allow the motor (or coolant) to cool to fit a new electric heater?  In the first place they are underneath, nothing to do with the engine; and being separate from the coolant system you do not need to disturb this either!

Roy
« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 07:30:03 pm by roy4matra » Logged

roy4matra
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« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2011, 08:14:29 pm »

... A measurement of 7.4 Mohms thru the heater element revealed that a new one is due. 88 ohms is what it should be for a 600w heater...

I think the sums are incorrect.  If you had a resistance of 88 ohms on a 12 volt car circuit you would only get a tiny current (approx. 0.24 amps) and very little heat generated!

Roy
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jack daniels
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Posts: 132



« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2011, 10:22:31 pm »

the engine heater that i had replaced was a 240v motor block heater, 600w.

It sits in the left hand frost plug hole at the back when looking at the car from the front.
this is effective enough in the Espace III that some warm air disipates out of the windscreen demist vents on the dashboard and keeps the lower windscreen somewhat ice free down to about -10.
              Otherwise it heats the block and coolant to 25 degrees above ambient. The water cooled auto trans also benefits.
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Espace, Grand (magnifique, formidable, grandiose, considérable, noble, ample) III  
2002   JE02   F4R  DP0   2.0L 16v auto
roy4matra
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« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2011, 02:48:15 pm »

the engine heater that i had replaced was a 240v motor block heater, 600w...

Ah, you are talking about an engine coolant heater like those that are used in many cold climate countries like northern Canada where I have seen them, but rarely seen in the U.K.  Sorry for the misunderstanding, but my reply was aimed more at Fuego with his Series 4 Espace.  Block coolant heaters are not part of the standard package, at least not in the U.K. or France, and are usually a third party addition; whereas electric interior heaters are part of the standard package on some Series 4 Espace.

Roy
« Last Edit: January 15, 2011, 03:06:15 pm by roy4matra » Logged

jack daniels
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Posts: 132



« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2011, 02:45:35 pm »

I'd reccomend anyone who has access to a power outlet to fit one.

most polution is emitted in the first 10 min after startup
it stops the wiper fluid from freezing, just having the warm block nerby is enough.
the battery is warmer and and performs better.
starting is easy, just like a summers day.
lubrication at startup is probably better with warmer oil.
battery chargers can be build in, so the battery is always tip top.
prices start at about £100 for an element andd a cable.
the fuel saving may pay for itself

http://wup.defa.com/en/wup_products_preheaters.html
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Espace, Grand (magnifique, formidable, grandiose, considérable, noble, ample) III  
2002   JE02   F4R  DP0   2.0L 16v auto
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