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Author Topic: 2002 Espace JE0K - running badly - lots of smoke  (Read 8276 times)
colin4255
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« on: December 27, 2010, 03:39:14 pm »

Ha, I knew it was too good to be true. After a year of good motoring, My espace has begun playing up.  It started a week ago Sunday after temp here in the UK dropped to minus 15 C. Next day I started the car and it seemed ok, but after about 10km it spluttered and stopped. Got the ususal injector message on the dash. It took several goes to make it start, each time it stopped again almost immediately. Eventually got it running and drove it slowly to garage. Lack of power, black smoke from exhaust on acceleration, very sluggish and then it would pick up and run OK, then go slowly and have little power again.  DEaler did clip test (Christmas eve)  and found  a number of errors related to injector and fuel system, all seemed to be electrical faults related to each injector not getting enough voltage and two other fuel related electrical issues including cold start heater plugs on two cycliners need replacing - car does start immediately though when cold.

I am assuming diesel did not freeze in the pipes, but not sure. I have the car back now, but they have not had time to fix it and they do not seem too sure where to start. It starts fine, you can rev the engine and it sounds OK, it puts out quite a bit a black / dark grey smoke when you accelerate (even slightly), but once its moving it drives OK apart from being sluggish and not having the same acceleration I am used to seeing and the almost constant black smoke when you accelerate.

I am going to take it back to garage when they open again on Wednesday, but does anyone have any idea what can be wrong?

It does need two new heater plugs, but fuel filter was changed about 5 months back, it is regularly serviced. TDC sensor replaced about 6 months ago.

Since they zeroed the errors no more have come up on dash, but it is not running properly. The little cold start engine came on yesterday (-6C)  and it put out a huge amount of grey smoke??

Maybe there is an issue with wiring, or something has got damp or is maybe earthing out??  Any ideas on where to look would be a help?

Thanks
Colin
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renaultbiler
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« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2010, 04:53:08 pm »

Sounds like stuck egr valve..... Huh
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
colin4255
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Posts: 119



« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2010, 10:27:05 pm »

I thought that maybe a possibility too, yet it didn't show anything up on the diagnostic test. It was all about voltage irregularities with each injector - ie voltages too low on each one, hence my question being more about electrics.   I have a spare EGR valve and know how to change it so, I'll give that a try in any case just to see what happens.
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colin4255
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Posts: 119



« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2010, 02:23:38 pm »

OK, changed the EGR valve, it was stuck slightly open as we figured.  Now that the truck is running better we still have the issue with the Injector voltages.  The Clip test gave out the following results:-

Cylinder 1 circuit 2.DEF
Cylinder 2 circuit 2.DEF
Cylinder 3 circuit 2.DEF
Cylinder 4 circuit 2.DEF

This seems to be some sort of over/under voltage error and it lists a number of possible causes.

Anyone know the most common thing to look for?  While the vehicle is running OK now, this is obviously still an issue, as we keep periodically getting the injector error symbol on the dash
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renaultbiler
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« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2010, 04:42:49 pm »

Are you 100% sure its not a insolation issue behind the generator area where the cables split and passes the ac high pressure pipe ? Can be hard to spot down there, but *all* these 2.2 dci's suffer from this issue (more or less). Tried to find a photo from last time i did one with this fault but its located on another computer.

And btw - i would unplug the EGR now that its closed and fine!
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
colin4255
Sr. Member
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Posts: 119



« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2010, 07:47:20 pm »

Thanks for this Renaultbillier.  I have had a good look around the loom, so far as I can see anything and haven't noticed anything obvious, or dasmaged, or rubbing or touching metal anywhere. I will have another look around the alternator / AC pipe area. Its not actually that easy to see anything there, but I  will have a good look and let you know.  All the cables seem to be protected by hard plastic sheath - if you do find the picture it would help me pin down where to look exactly.

Only thing that has happened recently, is my indicators no longer flash when I arm and disarm the Cobra CAT1 alarm. Took the top of the dash (alarm boxes located there) and checked the fuse in the main cobra unit and it seems fine - ie not blown. All wires seem connected OK and no obvious breaks.  No idea if this is related but the alarm still works OK.

Judging by the size of the bit of crap that jammed the EGR valve, I'm going to take the EGR housing (the thing the valve sits in) off at some point soon and clean that. My guess is its never been cleaned - leastways not in the three years I have had the vehicle.

Thanks for the help.
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renaultbiler
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« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2010, 10:13:43 pm »

It rubs through the plastic sheath, i will try to find a photo.
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
renaultbiler
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Posts: 418



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« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2010, 11:10:00 pm »

Here are relevant photos from last JE0K i fixed for this, you have to look carefully since injector cables are split in pairs and run in cables on both sides of the ac pipe.

Doc: http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Espace/vault/JE/NT4130A.pdf
Page 8
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 11:20:14 pm by renaultbiler » Logged

1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
colin4255
Sr. Member
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Posts: 119



« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2011, 02:15:14 am »

Many thanks for this Renaultbillier. My G9T  DCi doesn't look quite like this, BUT I did find a small section of wiring close to generator, that had no outer sheathing on it. IR several wires in a bundle not protected. Why I don't know, but one of the wires was touching an A/c pipe close by. As the wire weas grey, the inner wire was grey and the a/c pipe was grey it was almost impossible to know if it was shorting out, but I have re-sheathed the whole section (about 2 inches), in hard plastic sheathing and the problem seems to have gone away.  I will try and take a photo so you can see if its the same area.  I also  found the wiring to the EGR valve was touching the pipe that comes from top right of the cylinder blcok into the EGR hoousing was partly melted. Now the wire themselves were not exposed - insulation on the individual wires inside the outer sheath were fine, but can the fact the individual wires were getting hot affect the voltages going through them?  I have been told that it can??

I have driven the car for 2 days now and it seems fine. No issues with service lights coming on, no problems with performance - it all seems to be fine.

Alarm BTW is NOT working. Apart from checking the fuse in the cobra unit under the main dash section, I am not sure what else to look for here - I assume there are no fueses in the fusebox for the Cobra unit?
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renaultbiler
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« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2011, 10:39:49 am »

Seems your problem was cured then

The Cobra alarm was "never" seen over here so i know nothing about it, but suspicion goes to door/bonnet switch issue or something like that.
Check carefully that none of the doors switch pins has snapped off.
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
colin4255
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 119



« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2011, 11:17:00 am »

I figured it out. In my manual one of the fuses is shown to be for electric seats which I do not have, yet there is a fuse and it was blown.  I checked with my Renault dealer here and they say, the fuse is for electric seats AND alarm pre-equipment - thought it does not say this in my cars handbook!  Anyway, changed the fuse and the alarm is working fine again. They don't make it easy at Renault, do they!!

I will post image of the wires I fixed tomorrow.
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renaultbiler
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Posts: 418



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« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2011, 03:18:48 pm »

I think all those alarms are fitted in UK before its delivered to customer - probably due some country specific regulations regarding alarm - so its not really factory fitted even if its a genuine fit. That makes sense since its not marked on fuseboard or noted in manual.
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
colin4255
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 119



« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2011, 04:05:51 pm »

It is known as a Thatcham CAT1 Alarm system - very hard for any burglar to get around.  Its just our insurers here in the UK that are driving this kind of thing, mainly due to ever  increasing levels of car theft.  They say that as many as 4 - 5,000 cars a week that are stolen are leaving the UK on ships, in containers, in whole or stripped into parts, and by road to be sold in Europe - highly organised crime - that is what drives us to fit these expensive alarms.

Though, in the case of My espace, they would never get very far in it until it broke down at side of road with a wiring, EGR, Injector or air mass meter fault!!
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colin4255
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Posts: 119



« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2011, 10:46:57 pm »

OK. Sorry for the delay in posting this image, but the bit you can see by the arrows had no sheathing on it at all when I checked, and was touching the a/c pipe. I have 'fitted' some aftermarket split sheathing to it to protect the wires and stop them earthing on the a/c pipe and all is now fine.  This by the way is a 2002 2.2 dci JEOK G9T turbo engine which may differe from the other 2.2 DT engines in use.
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colin4255
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Posts: 119



« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2011, 10:55:34 pm »

Finally, I just wanted to add a sincere thanks here to Renaultbillier for his timely and excellent advice. The longer I own the Espace the more I learn about it, but without this forum and the extremely useful advice  given freely by its members the worse off we would all be.  I try to contribute when I can and when I have learned something useful, but you guys are amazing. My Renault dealer is very helpful, they often don't bill me for doing diagnostic checks, or indeed other exploatory work,   but I am sure my garage bills would be a lot higher without all the help you guys always offer..  Please keep up the good work.  I love my Espace, I just wish it was an easier vehicle to live with day to day.. IE that it just kept working al the time like my last VW did!!!

That said, with all your excellent help, I am learning how to live with it day by day and how to mend things myself.  You are all outstanding. 

Many thanks indeed.....
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