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Author Topic: strange over heating problem?  (Read 18363 times)
ESPACED
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« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2011, 12:03:03 am »

Hi Renaultbiler,
water pump new.. heatgasket new.. both fitted 2 years ago. mileage done 6000 miles since if that.
the RAC man told me its not losing water and he thinks it maybe a blockage in the system, but were??
when he reve'd the engine the water was a pink colour due to the antifreeze but changed colours to a slight brown at times? and then back to pink?
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colin4255
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« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2011, 02:01:17 pm »

If we are to assume radiator, heater matrixes, expansion tank and cap  and all the hoses are OK and in good condition, then either you have been very unlucky and got two thermostats that don't work properly, OR your head gasket is leaking - they don't always go with a bang and in a cloud of steam straight away, they can leak for ages first - this would explain the high pressure, it could be coming from a leaking head gasket.  No easy way to tell apart from take the head off though anf then you'll have to replace the gasket in any case!!

Try the themostat first.  I am not sure about new ones, but a few years back, you could actually test a thermostat, by hanging it using string, immersed in a pan of boiling water. If it worked, you'd actually see it open.  Maybe worth a try once you have taken the thing out of the car??
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GrahamT
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« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2011, 12:57:12 am »

Hi Tony,
I suspect you have a very very small head gasket leak which is pressurising the cooling system.
The clue is that it is retaining the pressure. I bet it would hold it for several days!
A "sniff" test done by a garage may detect this but there may not be enough exhaust gas to detect it. Should be about £15, probably worth a try.
You could also try leaving the cap off with the engine running and watch the coolant for the odd bubble, try sniffing it too, you might smell the exhaust gas yourself.
If you're lucky re-torquing the head might reseal the head gasket but I regret to say it's probably new head gasket time.
All the best,
Graham
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colin4255
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« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2011, 12:14:33 am »

It sounds like GrahamT is right. I know you replaced the head gasket about 2 yrs ago, but it sounds like its failed again. Maybe it was bever re-torqued after initial fitting? Maybe new head bolts should have been used (I am sureabout this but  Roy4matra who uses this forum will know the answer to that.   I am afrid I don't, but most modern cars have head bolts that stretch when first used, and torqued down - and if  re-used a second time, are often a few thousandsths of an inch too long after the first use and thus can never again be fully tightened down as they begin to bottom out in the block?).

It might be worth re-tightening the head bolts, but once a leak starts, I wouldn't hold out much hope that will work as the gasket is probably already damaged by the pressurised water leak.  . I have tried it unsuccessfully on other cars.

Its worth a go with the thermostat and the bolts if only to see if it works and you save the cost of a new gasket I suppose.
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ESPACED
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« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2011, 02:46:26 pm »

Hi Guy's
I think you maybe right.. new bolts were used.. when the head was repaired..
I may try and get  then tightened but would that work or help
seems to me more money has to be spent again..
don't really know what to do now..
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colin4255
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« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2011, 04:10:28 pm »

Not easy to say.  On my 2.2 DCI G9T engine, they say you have to remove the engine to do any work on the head, so in my case if it happened, I'd just get a new gasket and new head bolts fitted as most of the labour cost is not related to unbolting the head, but getting the engine in and out of the car.

You won't be able to keep running like you are for very long until it does other damage to the engine and maybe warps the head too?
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ESPACED
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« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2011, 10:15:53 pm »

This is what I'm going to do..
I need to wait till the weekend and do some of the checks you guys have mentioned..will remove the thermostat and see if that has any affect. then I'll know which way to go... I'll not driving it till then...
I remember hearing someone say, you can tighten the head if you drop the engine to 1 side... not sure if that will help and do more damage..
Anyway
many thanks for all the help to you all and I'll let you know after the weekend whats happening

best regards
Tony
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colin4255
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« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2011, 01:16:44 am »

I really do wish you the best of luck with your issue and hope you can fix it without having to get a new gasket fiited. If GrahamT is right, even removing the thermostat will only delay the inevitable pressurisation of the system. I would take the stat out (and check it using a pan of boiling water just to see) and then leave the car running on the path and see if, or how long it takes for the hoses to  go hard. If the gasket is leaking, while it may take longer, you will still see the same pressurisation of the system.  Taking off the tank cap to see any bubbles is also a good way of checking. If you see any or smell anything like exhaist has then its a safe bet the gasket has failed.

I am sure there is a way to re-tighten the bolts without rmoving the engine. I am going to my Renault delaer tomorrow, so I will ask and any info I get, I will pass on. Roy4matra may as an ex renault RTE may actually know if this is possible??
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roy4matra
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« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2011, 05:25:00 pm »

Hi guys
Back to the drawing board...

This morning even before I turned the engine over i took the cap of the expansion tank and the pressure threw the water out HuhHuh?

Does anyone have any ideas why this is happening..

I'm sorry to say but this sounds like you have a head gasket blown at best, or a crack at worst.  To retain sufficient pressure over night to blow out coolant there must have been a lot of pressure in the system and that is not just the normal 1-2 bar created by the system being sealed and the coolant being heated.  The expanded hoses that you mentioned earlier also point to the over-pressure caused by the engine pressurising the cooling system, and the final proof is the heater blowing cold - as the engine blows gases into the coolant, this goes initially to the highest point in the system which are the matricies.  The fact that the heater is often cold right from the start is that the engine gases are already there from the previous run, so they don't get the warm coolant to work correctly.

Although you have had a gasket done a couple of years back, you may have caused it to blow again by getting it too hot (you said you switched it off when it reached the red but that is too late - the top of an engine gets even hotter just after switching off as the heat rises) or it may be that originally it wasn't a gasket but the start of a crack, and since then it has been slowly getting worse.

This does not sound like a problem with the thermostat at all, particularly since you have now fitted two new ones, and I would not waste time with that at this time.  A compression check should be the first test, and the engine should be hot (which is when the gasket or crack opens up) or possibly a block coolant test - this is a fluid that changes colour in the presence of engine gases in the coolant.

Tightening down the head bolts will not do anything even assuming you can get at them all, and if you do have a crack then that is another reason why tightening the head bolts would be a waste of time.  To remove the head on these engine means removing the engine, and that really means having a ramp since you have to lift the chassis away from the engine.  The garages have an engine dolly, and once all the bolts, electrics connections, pipes etc. are off or apart, the engine sits on this whilst the mountings are undone, and then the chassis is lifted up, leaving the engine on the dolly.  To do this at home with normal DIY tools is not really a sensible proposition.

Roy
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 05:32:09 pm by roy4matra » Logged

ESPACED
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« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2011, 11:29:28 pm »

Hi Roy..
I know your Right!!!!
I needed a few days to let it sink into my head as i didn't really want to believe it..
i think my days as an espace owner may be over as I only liked this shape and really don't like the newer shape at all..
The kids cried yesterday when I told them we may have to change her..
I have done a lot of work on this car and could do it again by replacing the head gasket but.. as everyone has told me it may happen again and I'm not going to take that chance.. as I have already spent a small fortune.. (to embarrass to say a figure)
New pistons
New piston rings
New shims
Head pressure test and skimmed
New water pump
New radiator
2 new heater matrixs
New glow plugs
New battery
New valves
New exhaust
New tension rods

And the list goes on..
As I can remember everything..
Although if may be a 1998 it didn’t matter to me as it severed it purpose and did the job well but now.. well all that has changed..

I’d like to thank you all for the help in this post and in posts of past in my times of trouble

Best regards
Tony
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renaultbiler
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« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2011, 12:44:15 am »

I fully understand your point of view

If it was mine -and considering all that is replaced on it recently -i would put it at rest for a few days and perhaps consider to give it one last chance with new head gasket -to make the kids happy Cry
If i remember correct you did the work on this one yourself -so you know it quite well -its quite a few hours of work for sure, but still its not costly other than new gasket and new bolts and some blood sweat and tears  Roll Eyes long forgotten once its done.

Well, i wish you luck no matter what you decide Smiley
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colin4255
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« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2011, 10:46:44 pm »

One thing to add here. I have been reading in detail some info in the vault about replacing head bolts and head gasket and there is a comment on one of the technical notes that says, before putting new bolts in, you should obtain a syringe long enough to reach the bottom of the holes where the bolts go and suck out any oil you find, so as to make sure the bolts actually tighten properly - which is interesting and maybe not something any non renualt trained garage or mechanic would know, but it still could cause the bolts to appear properly tightened when in fact due to a kind hydraulic locking when the bolts are under pressure, that they wouldn't be if there was any oil there.

Worth knowing if you do decide to go ahead with a new gaslet.
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jack daniels
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« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2011, 12:23:58 pm »

that is a good point Colin.
I dont know if that detail is in the average workshop manual, but one should allways check in a stud hole one way or another before puting the stud in. I use a least a vernier caliper to measure the depth, and take a look with a light, if that's possible. I measure the stud length before putting it in and again after its in to keep control over where they are. If you have another bolt to hand with the same thread but cut to a smaller dia you can even just run that in by hand to check that the thread is deep enough and not just the hole itself. There could be swarf, loctite, or fluid in there. The thread could even be damaged. An air pistol is ok but abrasive crap could come flying out, so its a good idea to at least cover the pistol and the hole with a rag. If there is lubricant in there, it could easily cause hydraulic lock for sure.
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Espace, Grand (magnifique, formidable, grandiose, considérable, noble, ample) III  
2002   JE02   F4R  DP0   2.0L 16v auto
ESPACED
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« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2011, 10:27:05 pm »

Hi Guys
All this was done..
My espace had 7 previous owners, when I bought her and she was not drivable... it was only the head that had blown.. so they told me...
When opening the engine, it was like open a can of worms.. Piston were damages valves were bent and scorched
I did everything by the book.. and nearly changed every
£400 on the head alone just to get the old glow plugs drilled out, skimmed and pressure tested
And the list goes on....
I have never added all the bills up because I didn’t really what to know, but pretty sure near to £2000  or even more was spent when you take everything into account.. and that does not include the £500.00 I paid for her..

Any way
On the 3rd yesterday she was sold as a part exchange...
Gone for peanuts.....
Sorry that a lie..
For less really...

No longer an espace owner..

I would like to thank every ones input on this Forum, because without you guys a lot of question would have not been answer..

BIG THANKS!!!!   TO ALL!!!!!!

Now I have a Ford Galaxy 2.0 diesel  2007....
Quite nice......  Ops sorry shouldn’t have said that

Many thanks
Best regards
Tony
P.S.
Have fun guys....
Bye..
 
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colin4255
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« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2011, 11:16:44 pm »

Thanks for the update. A step too far I guess, and who can blame you. The Galaxy is a nice car - I have driven afew. Good luck with it.

Regards
Colin
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