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Author Topic: Bagheera Limited Slip Differential  (Read 18994 times)
andyowl
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« on: July 06, 2011, 08:35:20 pm »

We discussed this topic a while ago but I'd like to get an update please.

It is evident that Baggy Joe is lifting the inside rear wheel while cornering fast and losing drive. A "Limited Slip Differential" would help with that I am told.

Following Graham Pryme's lead I contacted "Quaife" but they are unable to help.

Mick Ward talked of the Rancho's "Anti-bog" LSD but someone described that as "On/Off" and not suitable for going around corners quickly.

Any other ideas or alternative gearbox suggestions would be most welcome.

Andy Owler

PS Baggy Joe repair work starts on Monday! We are going to try and straighten out the bent steelwork with heat and tension.


I'll start another thread when I have some pictures to show.

Andy
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lewisman
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« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2011, 01:08:38 am »

Hi Andy

I am a bit far away but if you need a nose cone and a front bumper I have one of each that you can have for the cost of shipping (obviously a closer one would be better!)

Cheers

David
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bert1
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Posts: 28


« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2012, 02:47:31 am »

Andy how did you go with the LSD?

I have been contemplating this as well.

Trouble is I am located in Australia and we never got Simca's after the Aronde so my Simca related questions probably sound stupid - but I struggle to find anything out in this country!

I run a Fiat X1/9 racecar and absolutely love my Bacci & Romano LSD - I was just checking their website and I notice that they do a LSD hemisphere for the Simca Rallye 2 and Rallye 3 - are the gearbox/diff internals the same/similar to the 1100 4 speed?

They also list one for the Talbot Samba Rallye (which I think is the Citroen/Peugeot engine) - so in all likelihood no good there.

Anything there of any use to us?
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andyowl
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« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2012, 07:12:38 pm »

I regret that I did not make any progress with an LSD for the Bagheera.

I asked Quaife but they were unable to help. In the absence of ideas from this forum I gave up! At this time I do not even remember when that was!

You have quite a number of good suggestions and I hope that someone more knowledable than I can comment on them. The larger supercharger I still plan to fit will certainly need an LSD to get maximum benefit.

Baggy Joe had not been touched since his outing to the Matra Club Rally in December and we were talking this morning about getting him going again. There are a number of events we are planning to do in the next two months (Hill Climbs and Sprints). He is also "First Reserve" for the AutoSolo one week tomorrow near Aldershot if "Chalky" is not ready.

The car we have entered is the 1973 Fiat 126 "Chalky" (he is white and rust) I have been working on since the Autumn. We had the engine running this afternoon for the first time. The problem is that we have fiitted a  652cc engine from a more recent model for which I have no manual or circuit diagram! MoT annual test on Tuesday! Gulp!

Andy



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bert1
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« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2012, 04:11:25 pm »

good one Andy!

We never got the 126 in this country - although the FSM Niki was imported here. The standing joke is that they become more reliable each day - as the Polish bits get replaced by proper Italian ones! All Niki's are air cooled though - I think there may be 1 or 2 here with the water cooling - but they are a VERY rare beast! My good friend Ross Smith at Fiatorque (fiatorque.com.au) runs a Niki with a 5 speed conversion - and soon to be supercharged and fuel injected!

For my Baggy we are going more "new tech old school" for performance upgrade. We have custom length forged conrods and the forged pistons are on order at the moment. We will be using a 1442 block and crank and overboring somewhat. We have fitted big valves to the head and done extensive porting. I have 40mm throttle bodies on order from the US (I hate carbys with a passion!) so I'm hoping for very solid performance and bulletproof reliability - while still being a sweet roadcar. No plans to track the poor old girl - so I guess the LSD is a "nice to have" rather than essential. I haven't given up though! I've tasted a good LSD and I like it!

I haven't tried Colotti as yet (for my Fiat they were well over triple the price of B&R - ouch) but they are a possibility.

I'm surprised you had no joy with Quaife. If you have time on your hands, a spare hemisphere and a inquisitive nature their website is excellent in that it gives all the critical dimensions for their various products. Here is an example of the Fiat item: http://www.quaife.co.uk/sites/default/files/drawings/QDH2K.PDF. Using their flange drives (http://www.quaife.co.uk/shop/products/f14z211) may make it easier to adapt something - although now we are talking custom driveshafts and things are getting fast out of control!  I will say though that a few people are using the ATB style diffs like Quaife do in racing and most don't like them favouring the ramp loaded clutch pack (like Colotti, B&R, Abarth, Ferrari etc).

At one stage I had a bloke over here who was prepared to make something from scratch for me. Not as expensive as you may think - but there was a minimum quantity of 5 units and I doubt if I could offload 4 apart from mine!

Quite common in this country is what people refer to as a "phantom LSD" which is a modification with springs and steel plates. This is generally considered only marginally better than an open diff but may be a last resort?

Anyway - I'll keep plugging away if you do!

Cheers
Dave
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bert1
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« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2012, 04:21:34 pm »

Sorry for the duplicated reply. I got busy with the search engines!

Andy I'm onto a LSD for the Bagheera. It is from Colotti which means it could be very pricey - but I've sent them a message so lets see what comes back!

Here is the link:

http://www.colotti.com/Engl/talbE.htm

I'll keep you informed!

Cheers
Dave
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JL
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« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2012, 05:26:45 pm »

Hi Andy

Try these people, they are very helpful, they are local to me in Coventry and are old school inasmuch that they will look at out of the ordinary projects.

http://www.davemacprops.com/gripper.html

Regards
John

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bert1
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« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2012, 03:23:26 pm »

Colotti came back to me - the T529 is incorrectly listed in their website and is actually a 3.063 final drive CW&P (which might be useful anyway - I'll have a think about that and rear tyre size).

I have asked them if their listings for Rancho, Murena and Horizon are similarly wrong - or if one of them will yield a LSD for us!

They have offered to make one as a "special project". To do so they require a hemisphere be sent to them. Sounds pricey - but for a gag I asked them to quote on the cost of doing this. You just never know I suppose!

The plot thickens!

I am interested in the Gripper Diffs as well - they look very reasonably priced - I think I would need to rely on someone local though to chat with them! Its hard from 17,000km away...
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 03:26:06 pm by bert1 » Logged
bert1
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« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2012, 01:17:53 pm »

Latest Installment. I remember now how expensive Colotti is. This is the response I got from Marco (son of the great man - what a family history eh?):


All of these projects were made by my father, unfortunately he is dead 4 years ago, so the informations about them are the only that I found inside the old drawings.

T.172 is a “Coppia Frenata” L.S.D.  it isn’t in stock and the cost for build only one kit is Euro 4850,00 +shipping.

T.285 is a “Coppia Frenata” L.S.D.  it isn’t in stock and the cost for build only one kit is Euro 2750,00 +shipping. (there isn’t any information about what kind of gearbox)

T.389 is a “Coppia Frenata” L.S.D.  it isn’t in stock and the cost for build only one kit is Euro 2550,00 +shipping. It was fitted in BE1 gearbox.


So the T389 is no good to us as it was in the BE1 Peugeot gearbox in the Horizon.

e4850 is a fair hit for a Rancho diff (without trying to offend anyone - I wonder if there are any Ranchos left worth e5000?). I guess the Murena (T285) is better - but still very pricey - and I don't know if that would be for a 2.2 (Citroen Box?) or 1.6 (is this a simca box?).

So it looks like I may have come up with a dead end - or certainly a "not economically viable" one at least....

Back to my original question - is a Rallye 2 or 3 hemisphere the same as an 1100 one?
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bert1
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« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2012, 04:42:37 am »

Back to my original question - is a Rallye 2 or 3 hemisphere the same as an 1100 one?

Anyone? There is ZERO information about these cars in this part of the world and my internet searching hasn't got me anywhere! HELP!
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andyowl
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New exhaust "straight through" - good sound!


« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2012, 09:11:43 pm »

Back to my original question - is a Rallye 2 or 3 hemisphere the same as an 1100 one?
[/quote]

Anyone? There is ZERO information about these cars in this part of the world and my internet searching hasn't got me anywhere! HELP!
[/quote]

My apologies for the delay in responding to these helpful comments.

The 1.6 Murena  engine does use the Simca gearbox/differential although the 1.6 block has some differences to the 1442 Bagheera engine. Baggy Joe has the 1.6 block but connected to the Bagheera gearbox - I don't know what they changed as it arrived with that set up. I didn't even know the engine was a 1.6 until I blew the head gasket and measured the cylinder bores!

The Murens 1.6 engine has a larger clutch plate/assembly but I found out the hard way when I bought the Murena 1.6 clutch and it would not fit! I think I have the 1442 flywheel and clutch on the 1.6 engine. It seems to work. During racing starts I can spin the rear wheels on dry tarmac and so far the clutch is surviving!

Last night I started taking off the Shorrock Supercharger and fitting the bigger Wade supercharger. Photos will follow soon. I shall need that LSD soon - hopefully!

Andy
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Matra_Hans
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Owner of Bagheera, Rancho, Murena & Espace


« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2012, 09:59:31 am »

Hi
A Rancho limited slip is up for sale on the French site Leboncoin.

http://www.leboncoin.fr/equipement_auto/393239425.htm?ca=17_s
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andyowl
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New exhaust "straight through" - good sound!


« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2012, 11:23:15 am »

Thanks for the tip-off. I am trying to get more info e.g. type, maker, size etc.

I'll report back.

Andy
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andyowl
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New exhaust "straight through" - good sound!


« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2012, 03:46:24 pm »

With help from Clive Nelson and my Alpine friend Tony Gomis I have now asked for help from Gerard Magro - he owns a Bagheera (perfect!) and is the all time record holder at Etretat in a Simca CG. This is the email I have just sent to him...
Dear Gerard,
 
I have been alerted to an advertisement in France for a LSD from a Rancho suitable for a Bagheera.
 
I would like to find a Limited Slip Differential for the Bagheera but I am advised that the Rancho LSD is not suitable for my needs as it intended to help the Rancho escape from a muddy field and not intended to help it go around corners quickly!
 
This all I have found out so far...
 
The Rancho LSD is a simple On/Off mechanical system which locks both wheels together if the difference in their rotational speed exceeds 30%. It is therefore not suitable for competition use where a proportional action is required.
 
This is the link I used....
 
http://www.leboncoin.fr/equipement_auto/393239425.htm?ca=17_s

Who made it? Not known
 
Is there a nameplate / type number / model / serial number etc. None found
 
Condition? Unknown
 
Will it fit in the standard differential casing or does it have to be an enlarged version? The Matra club expert tells me that it is 20mm wider than the standard Bagheera "pont" but only needs the drive shaft shortening by this amount.
 
My apologies for asking for your help!
 
If this LSD is not suitable (and I think it is NOT suitable) do you have any suggestions where I might find one or have one made?
 
Thank you for your help
 
Andy Owler
 
 
===============================================================================================
 
 Advice from Tony Gomis
 
Andy. You are certainly correct about not having the sudden-locking type for tarmac events.
As requested in the ad, I contacted vendor "Gerard" by phone. I get the impression he's one floor short of a tower block, as he really didn't know too much about it, the suggestion being that it's a friend's, not his. Anywhere, it's still there. He was asking 400euro, but  clearly would accept  less : he mentioned 300.
 
He says it's made for a Simca transmission. He says it's the progressive type. "30/40 per cent maximum".
 
Tony
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andyowl
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New exhaust "straight through" - good sound!


« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2012, 07:01:46 pm »

Update on the LSD search... I had this reply from Gerard Magro this morning..

Hello ANDY
    I think that this LSD is a good one. ( the rancho's gear box is exactly the same that the bagheera one). There is two kinds of LSD : One with several discs and the second model is with rollers. The second one is more violent that the first one.I have the first model on my CG spider with 75% (when it was new) . the LSD of the "Leboncoin site" is only 30%, so I think that it is not very violent.
       Tony GOMIS has phone to the seller, if you want more details, Icould phone again. But I think that this LSD was on the rancho "grand raid" a special model by Matra .
        All the best   gerard

To which I have now replied..
Dear Gerard, Tony and Clive,
.
I visited this afternoon a local company (Hardy Engineering Ltd.,) who specialise in car transmission systems. They rebuilt the Baggy Joe Gearbox and differential after I damaged it at Etretat in 2010.
 
They are not able to help me as they only build and repair standard products.
 
Their advice is to find some way of incorporating a standard Quaife Automatic Torque Biasing "ATB" differential within the existing differential housing. It would require a new rotor (or adaptors) to suit a standard Quaife product but that may be possible to organise.
 
I now have contacts at Quaife who are only 40km from my home in Sevenoaks, Kent. It is said they are very helpful but that was not my earlier experience of the company. When I asked if they could make an LSD for a Bagheera they said "only if you want to buy 20 units!".
 
I will give them one more try and see if I can design their ATB into a Baggy diff. "Am I an Engineer or a Mouse?"
 
The Quaife ATB seems to cost around £560, or about twice the price of the Rancho LSD, but it might do a better job in the end.
 
So I will spend a little time researching the Quaife alternative and hope that the Rancho unit is not sold in the meantime!
 
Thank you again for your help and advice.
 
Sincerely
Andy

 
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