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Author Topic: Bagheera 1.6 clutch parts  (Read 3286 times)
andyowl
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« on: September 22, 2011, 11:12:23 am »

I am having releasing troubles with the clutch fitted to the 1592cc engine in my competition Bagheera "Baggy Joe".

It has always been necessary to push the clutch pedal right to the floor to disengage the clutch. The "free-play" at the top of the stroke seems a little large but is not easily adjustable. We have compared the travel and free-play on the slave cylinder with the one fitted to my original 1442cc 1977/8 Bagheera and they seem very similar. There are no obvious fluid leaks.

But it occurred to me that the 1592cc engine as fitted in the Murena may use different clutch master and slave cylinders and maybe a different clutch unit entirely to cope with the huge extra power increase (!).

These are the Bagheera part numbers for the 1977/8 1442cc engine. Does anyone know whether they are different for the Murena 1.6 engine? I need to fit them early next week at the latest (3 Sprints in the next 5 weeks and the end of the Southern Area Championship - I'm inline to win my Class this year!)

- Clutch assembly (up to 1979  with a 180mm diameter driven plate) Delcourt kit # 33400500
(The later 190mm (200mm?) kit is Delcourt # 33400600)

Note: "Steve" (in an email to the Matra-cars-forum 31.1.07) said the 1.6 Murena (1979/81) had a 200mm clutch in Quinton Hazel kit QKT209AF 

- Pressure plate alone (200mm) was C992AF
- Release bearing alone CCT271 (1442cc 1977onwards Bagheera had Delcourt 30100700

- Master cylinder (1442 Bagheera 1977 onwards) Matra # 00305795 00
- Slave cylinder (1442 Bagheera 1977 onwards) Matra # 00559477 14.
I also have Lockheed/Girling number LL21115 for the complete slave cylinder

Any light you can shed would be most helpful.


Andy Owler
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Spyros
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« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2011, 06:12:29 pm »

Andy, I like your pun : huge extra power increase = 1 bhp.
It was more the extra torque that generated the need for different parts.
 
The Bagheera (any model) and the Murena clutch are different and the Murena part will oblige you to adaptations.

Why that ?

The diff - gearbox ...
Much more space for the clutch in the Murena cluth housing and indeed it is bigger.
But take a weight scale and weight your Bagheera parts : Clutch assembly, diff, gearbox.
After that, turn to the Murena equivalent.
Do you have a weightbridge nearby ?
The difference there is ... a huge extra weight increase !
The 1.6 engines part are maybe way more solid but what heavy !

A little secret.
In the Simca Rallye, you will find more or less the same gearbox bits as in the Bagheera. You can even exchange them. Of course the engine is not positioned the same way, turn the other way round, blablabla
But it is the same base. As in some old Fiat
And in the standard gearbox housing, 1 french engine developer was able to fit 5 gear ratios.
I must have some docs on this somewhere, including all the ratios if you are interested
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andyowl
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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2011, 07:43:44 pm »

Copying the reply to SuffolkPete on the Murena section this afternoon...

Camberley Auto Factors recognised your QH part number for the Murena Clutch and I have ordered one for delivery tomorrow. I will report back on what it contains.

Matra Magic also confirmed that the Bagheera and Murena 1.6 clutch hydraulics are both the same.

Thanks

Andy
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andyowl
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« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2011, 09:13:03 pm »

From the Murena thread...

Thanks for the link to the Murena thread on clutch cylinders. Very helpful!

Progress so far.....

The Murena 200mm Clutch kit arrived on time but it is too big to fit the Bagheera flywheel!

I have removed the flywheel from my spare 1.6 engine but that is too big for the Bagheera "Bell Housing" (joins the engine to the gearbox).

So I ordered another 190mm Borg & Beck friction plate which arrived today. The old plate is worn but not so much that the rivets are coming through. My plan is to fit the new friction plate onto the old pressure plate and flywheel tomorrow (Wednesday)

We therefore have a Bagheera flywheel fitted to a Murena engine and I seem to have no choice in the short term but to live with it! In fairness the existing system has lasted nearly three seasons of strong competition use, two of those years with the supercharger, and it is not yet fully worn out. My only theory to explain the apparent "clutch drag" (the inability to release the friction plate completely) is that the friction plate distorts when it is hot. The movement from the Baggy Joe slave cylinder is similar to that in our original Baggy Grey so I conclude we are OK there.

I would like to reduce the "free play" (the distance the pedal moves before the clutch release bearing starts to operate the pressure plate). It seems to be larger than necessary. The only way to change that distance seems to be to add a washer under the pivot of the clutch release arm. Has anybody tried that?

Andy Owler
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Spyros
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« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2011, 10:25:11 pm »

I knew that the parts would be too big.

If you want to adjust the free play, you should try to find the first Bagheera slave cylinder (or the actuation rod) The rod is threaded and the purpose is to adjust the play
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andyowl
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« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2011, 08:16:54 pm »

Spyros wrote... You should find an early Bagheera slave cylinder which had a threaded rod.....

Thanks! A good idea! Or maybe make a threaded rod for that purpose!

You did say that the Murena parts would be too big but I had already ordered the 200mm clutch by then!

I did not initially understand that the spring in the slave cylinder continuously pushes the clutch release bearing against the pressure plate "fingers". The only place for "free play" must be within the pressure plate itself or at the master cylinder. Possibly the nylon clutch fluid pipe may also expand with the pressure?

We have now reassembled the clutch with the new Borg & Beck friction plate and will complete the installation tomorrow hopefully.

The next sprint is on Sunday at Debden, near Bishop's Stortford and Stansted, and I see that Graham Pryme has also entered with the Murena. My class includes a Subaru Impreza Turbo, a 3.5Litre MGB/V8 and a Talbot Sunbeam Lotus! No serious competition there then! Baggy Joe is not in the same class as the Murena as the organisers of the Championship decided that Graham's Murena is in "Roadgoing" class whereas Baggy Joe is "Specialist/Modified" because of the supercharger.

Andy
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Spyros
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« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2011, 09:25:24 am »

Baggy Joe is not in the same class as the Murena as the organisers of the Championship decided that Graham's Murena is in "Roadgoing" class whereas Baggy Joe is "Specialist/Modified" because of the supercharger.

Well, disconnect the charger and beat him  Wink

I might try to find back a new threaded slave cylinder and take a picture over the weekend ...
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andyowl
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New exhaust "straight through" - good sound!


« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2011, 10:33:42 am »

Baggy Joe is back together and the clutch seems fine. I am just about to take him for a test run before loading him onto the trailer for the Sprint tomorrow at Debden.

My only worry is that the silencer seems to be getting louder and more rattley! When we had it off some metal fragments came out of the tail pipe. Maybe the baffles are breaking up! I may take a spare silencer to change if he fails the noise test!

Andy

PS. Anybody interested in a Murena 1.6 clutch kit? Never fitted! Half price + P&P?
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