| Home  Blogs Help Search Login Register  
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Print
Author Topic: St st st st starting issues... 2.2 DCI Espace III  (Read 4967 times)
Valfrid
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 39


« on: July 24, 2014, 02:17:38 am »

Went to start the Espace the other day and the starter motor appeared to have given up. OK, fair enough, after 122k miles the original motor had given up. Symptoms were no flywheel drive and a clatter. So ordered a recon motor, fitted it and the same thing - initially - now it does drive the flywheel and indeed has been proven as turning the engine over as I can out in gear, and slip the clutch and the car will try and move. All good but it won't start! I am suspecting fuel starvation rather than timing or lack of it. If I let the pump prime and then try and start I get a momentary bit of enthusiasm from the engine then it just flies over.

I have now fuel pressure gauge to test but wondered what else I could check for? Ideas and suggestions gratefully received...
Logged
BrianM
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 321


« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2014, 11:00:14 am »

I think this is where a breakdown service is worth having! There are a lot of things that will cause this. Petrol in the fuel recently? push the crash sensor down by the fuel filter. Now spray 'easy start' in the air filter inlet (not too much) & try starting. if it does run then you have either a poorly low pressure pump or restricted flow through the fuel filter. Still not running then you could try disconnecting the maf sensor on the right hand side of the air filter, then if no start disconnect-reconnect the crank sensor & make sure it is pushed against the flywheel. It is by the righthand driveshaft in the gearbox. You can get to it without removing the plastic lower engine cover as it is beyond it.
If it does not go now then its time for a diagnostic test.
Hope yours does not look like mine at the moment.


I have a major fault with this one as it is missing it's 5v sensor voltage.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 05:17:40 pm by BrianM » Logged
roy4matra
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 873



« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2014, 06:40:29 pm »

Went to start the Espace the other day and the starter motor appeared to have given up. OK, fair enough, after 122k miles the original motor had given up. Symptoms were no flywheel drive and a clatter. So ordered a recon motor, fitted it and the same thing - initially - now it does drive the flywheel and indeed has been proven as turning the engine over as I can out in gear, and slip the clutch and the car will try and move. All good but it won't start! I am suspecting fuel starvation rather than timing or lack of it. If I let the pump prime and then try and start I get a momentary bit of enthusiasm from the engine then it just flies over.

I have now fuel pressure gauge to test but wondered what else I could check for? Ideas and suggestions gratefully received...

The very first thing is I'm not sure about you testing fuel pressure at all.  These Common Rail diesels run huge pressures - they require 250 - 300 bar just to idle and can run up to 1400 bar.  You are not allowed to disconnect a fuel line whilst the engine is running because of the danger of such high pressures and the possibility of fuel being pushed into the blood through the skin.  Also if you disconnect any joint you must clean all around first and it should immediately have seal caps put on the two open ends, and you are supposed to replace any pipes disconnected with new, because they have to be torqued up and the seal formed will never be exactly the same a second time.  The injector nozzle holes are less than a quarter of the diameter of a human hair and even extremely tiny dirt can get in the system and cause blockages.

Fuel pressures are measured on Clip electronically, not with any physical gauge.  Does your gauge even have the range to measure these sort of pressures?

The low pressure (electrical) pump draws the fuel from the tank and passes it to the high pressure (mechanical) pump which raises it to the huge pressures required for the engine to run.

We used to get problems where the low pressure pump was failing and not delivering sufficient fuel for the high pressure pump.  On cranking the Clip showed about 148 bar - very high by old diesel standards (they used to run at around just 185 psi) but not sufficient to even allow these common rail diesels to start or idle.  You really should get a Clip test first to see what pressure you have.

Roy
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 06:43:31 pm by roy4matra » Logged

Valfrid
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 39


« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2014, 11:19:21 pm »

Roy - I have to say I have no idea why I said I have a fuel pressure gauge - what I meant was could I use a fuel pressure gauge to measure the low fuel pump pressure but you're reply has answered all my questions. Main issues now are that the new starter has now failed. Without any real workload, the back of the solenoid unit has distorted which today after a 5 second crank resulted on the main and activating terminals getting so close together that they shorted causing the started to constantly run. A quick grab of the socket set and disconnecting the battery saved the day. The almost new battery I bought late last year has failed finally - after a full charge it cranks the engine once before becoming flat. I still have the issue with coolant being lost somewhere. It need new rear disks and pads and a new whole rear exhaust. There's also a puncture hole on the inside nearside driveshaft boot and the MOT is looming. I'm just thinking it's no longer worth carrying on with this car. I've spent too much time and money repairing this car rather than driving it and with a family, having to say that the car is not working yet again is getting too much. I'm also now losing money as I can't finish off a job that is nearly complete but I can't get paid for until it's complete.

I do love the Espace but it really is just to awkward to work on and so unreliable that it sadly has to go.

Will be selling the Espace very soon - spares or repairs... Despite all the new parts it'll be cheap as I just want it gone...
Logged
BrianM
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 321


« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2014, 11:18:22 pm »

 I don't think I have had one yet that has good rear disks. The caliper design is just s**t & it is the same on all cars that have them fitted. Speaking with my mot guy this saturday (mot'ing a mk4 with knackered rear disks) he tells me that the mot guidlines have changed & it is now hard to fail brake disks anymore. Only if there is a crack or similar catastropic failyer is looming can they fail them! anyway they are only 42 quid for the pair with pads. The cv boot you can repair with a puncture repair kit. Ok so you are going to need an exhaust if putty & a coke can cant fix it. It's difficult to comment on your starting problem, so the new starter failed. Can you get that replaced under warranty. Take a break, find some enthusiasm & get it done. At least you can sell if for a reasonable sum then rather than scrap money.
Logged
Valfrid
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 39


« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2014, 06:48:09 pm »

Thanks Brian and do I have a little enthusiasm back - so much so that I cleaned up the old motor and put a little grease on it and it's working - engine flying over fine now with the old starter motor. New one really is shot though so will just get a refund.

I am wondering if it was the starter - my main problem is that I have to work on my own on this so may had assumed it was the starter clacketing but could the mechanical fuel pump also make this noise? I'm 90% sure it's fuel starvation although without a CLIP I'll never know for sure and I'll be guessing if I decide to swap out the high pressure pump. Just seemed odd that I got the clatter sound with the new starter for 2 seconds then it went never to return with either old or new starter installed.

Any ideas anyone?
Logged
BrianM
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 321


« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2014, 07:21:33 pm »

I would have thought the clatter was the starter, however, I hope it was not a slipped cam belt! I doubt it is the pump. Try start it with easy start or any spray that has  spirit in it eg cleaning spray. dont use paint. Spray in the inlet hose & then try to start.
Logged
Valfrid
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 39


« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2014, 04:48:03 pm »

Did some more tests. Fuel delivery from the low pressure pump is good and delivers the recommended about of fuel in a minute as described by Renault (can't remember the figures though as I did this test a few weeks ago). Now have a CLIP tester but it's not registering any data although it does see the ECU  without issue. I put my MaxiDiag on and I have a new error code - DF019 - Air flow sensor circuit open or short circuit to earth but I always thought the engine would start in this situation.

Checked the cambelt and it's fine and under good tension.

Occasionally the oil warning error appears but this is down to some damage I inflicted on it without realising when I put the starter motor back on.

There are no untoward noises now when I crank the engine but there is no fuel entering the engine - engine just free spins.

Any suggestions gratefully received...
Logged
BrianM
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 321


« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2014, 08:26:32 pm »

Lets get your clip working, yes it would start with the maf disconnected. This fault usually shows the diagnostic warning. I'll pm you.
Logged
Valfrid
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 39


« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2014, 10:34:06 pm »

Downloaded some alternative software for clip and it still is not reading CAN but did warn when the car battery went flat from testing. Have a slightly duff battery which I have to keep topping up pending getting my Varta replaced under warranty.
One thing - how many glowplugs have to be OC before the ECU decides enough enough? I think one of the new glowplugs has worked loose so I have 3 out. Can hear compression on cylinder 4 with compression leak.
Logged
Valfrid
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 39


« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2014, 11:40:53 am »

With the battery charged again I decided to take another look at the Espace. With the air filter / MAF assembly removed, diesel fumes can be seen coming from the air intake. It seems one cylinder is getting good compression from the sound as it is turning over. There is still an occasional clunk as it turns over but the rapid chatter / clatter is no longer there. My fear is that part of one of the dodgy glowplugs that I couldn't remove may have fallen in to the cylinder.  I am tempted to now take it to a garage to get a second opinion as I still don't have any real idea what's going on. The other thought is the head gasket may have gone - it has still been loosing coolant although there appears to be no water in the oil any longer after I isolated the oil filter heat exchanger.

Any suggestions gratefully received...
Logged
Valfrid
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 39


« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2014, 03:48:23 pm »

Am now thinking that the timing may well be out. It's had a recent cam belt change but the clatter when I first had the non-starting issues did really sound like the belt slipping it's teeth over the pulleys. Taking a peek through a partially removed cover does however show it's under tension.

I'm guessing these engine will get seriously damaged if the belt goes out too far out of alignment. Am I right in thinking the crank is timed via the belt from the bottom pulley and there is a gear train that this pulley links to the crank (sorry if I'm way off here as I'm going by what I remember from technical data I saw a while back...)
Logged
Valfrid
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 39


« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2014, 11:45:23 pm »

Had a look at the supplement in the vault for the Espace and the cambelt is indeed linked via a gear train to the crank and the water pump. It does explain a lot of what I am experiencing with this engine that I get one cylinder trying to fire with exhaust fumes coming from the inlet intake. Going to consult my garage friend and see what he makes of it all...
Logged
BrianM
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 321


« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2014, 02:09:28 pm »

Hi, sorry not to have been around, computer failure, no internet, work, illness. You name it i got it. Anyway, I think you have a broken rocker shaft. I have just done one. It would start on 2 cyls. but clattered & was noisy from the air intake. I have another one here with a similar mis-fire & clatter that happened after the crank pulley fell off. You need to remove the injectors & inlet manifold. Not a big job. I found that one of the bolts that held the shaft in place was broken & that the threads of the other bolts holding the shaft in place had stripped in the head. The rockers were lifting the shaft up & down instead of opening the valves fully. I got a second hand shaft & gasket set, cleaned the injectors with paint stripper & an ultrasonic bath. Shaft went back in with stainless steel studs & lock tight threadlock. There is a further 10mm of thread beyond the length of bolts that were stripped. Runs a beauty now Smiley  With the top off you can get to the glow plugs with no problem. This one starts fine on two that work.
Catch me on skype now I'm back up & running.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 03:12:18 pm by BrianM » Logged
Valfrid
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 39


« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2014, 04:48:28 pm »

Hi Brian. Had the garage take a look and they are saying the same as you and I that basically the timing is out. 1 cylinder has no compression at all and it appears to actually only be firing on one cylinder. Don't have the time nor money to invest in the Espace anymore so have put it on Ebay as a spares or repair - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201208191567?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649. If anyone's interested, the listing ends tonight so be quick!

Thanks for all your help Brian and also to Roy too - you've both been great.
Logged
Pages: [1] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to: