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Author Topic: dash and wiring problems:  (Read 3228 times)
Joe Webb
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« on: September 15, 2014, 03:02:45 pm »

here is a list of the current dash and electrical flaws in my murena

I will add some pictures later

any advice on any of the issues will be greatly appreciated

1 spot lamps work when I pull the light control stick towards me but not when I press the spot lamp button on the left.

2. bottom heater slider is stuck and I can't get behind the matrix to see what's going on, really don't want to have to remove the whole dash

3 windows: passenger window works when controlled from the driver's door but not the passengers, all three have brand new switches. window lowers well but raises slowly.
drivers window doesn't work. there is a voltage drop when the raise/lower switch is depressed (don't know which one) but the window doesn't move

4 heater controls don't illuminate

5 new speakers installed but radio sounds bad at higher volume (I assume this is just reception but it could also be noise)

6 alarm doesn't work, can hear the switch inside the sensor when I move around but the alarm doesn't go off, solid red light when switched on. its a cobra alarm, I assume it's the factory one?

7 there's an extra long white wire connected to a connection that leads nowhere.

8 there are some wires in the front bay that aren't connected, will add pictures later


many thanks in advance

Joe
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suffolkpete
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« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2014, 12:18:12 pm »

here is a list of the current dash and electrical flaws in my murena

I will add some pictures later

any advice on any of the issues will be greatly appreciated

1 spot lamps work when I pull the light control stick towards me but not when I press the spot lamp button on the left.

2. bottom heater slider is stuck and I can't get behind the matrix to see what's going on, really don't want to have to remove the whole dash

3 windows: passenger window works when controlled from the driver's door but not the passengers, all three have brand new switches. window lowers well but raises slowly.
drivers window doesn't work. there is a voltage drop when the raise/lower switch is depressed (don't know which one) but the window doesn't move

4 heater controls don't illuminate

5 new speakers installed but radio sounds bad at higher volume (I assume this is just reception but it could also be noise)

6 alarm doesn't work, can hear the switch inside the sensor when I move around but the alarm doesn't go off, solid red light when switched on. its a cobra alarm, I assume it's the factory one?

7 there's an extra long white wire connected to a connection that leads nowhere.

8 there are some wires in the front bay that aren't connected, will add pictures later


many thanks in advance

Joe
1.  The spot lamps only work on main beam, but some owners have modified them so that they work whatever lights are on.
2.  You shouldn't need to get behind the matrix.  The air flap control is on the left hand side of the heater box and the water valve either next to it or inside the front boot in the left hand pipe that feeds the heater.  The likelihood is that one of these is stuck.
3.  Sounds like a wiring problem and a jammed mechanism or faulty motor on the driver's side.
4. If you remove the heater control panel, you will see three bulbs fed by two brass strips, these often become dislodged.  Note that the bulbs are 24 volt.  You can get these from a commercial vehicle factor.  Ask for a 508.
5.  Could be a mismatch between the radio and the speakers.
6. These cars never had a factory fit alarm, you will need to research the type.

It is very hard to diagnose electrical faults at a distance, you need to join the Matra Enthusiasts' Club www.matra-club.net and get a nice laminated wiring diagram from our technical adviser Roy Gillard.  If you can get the car to one of our meetings, you will find loads of help.  Our next meeting is a maintenance meeting at Brackley, Northants on October 5th, even if you can't get the car there, you will find similar cars to look at and plenty of advice.
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Joe Webb
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Posts: 30


« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2014, 01:51:49 pm »

thanks pete!

unfortunately I'm at uni in october, will join the club but I haven't got round to filling out the form yet.

That's good about the heater matrix though, I'll have another look.

I think I tried the spot lamps on main beam, but will try again

looking forward to getting it past its MOT so I can go to the meetings though! hopefully should be done this week :S

cheers!
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roy4matra
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« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2014, 12:44:26 am »

here is a list of the current dash and electrical flaws in my murena

I will add some pictures later

any advice on any of the issues will be greatly appreciated

1 spot lamps work when I pull the light control stick towards me but not when I press the spot lamp button on the left.

As Peter has explained these driving lamps are used for flashing which saves having to wait for the head lamps to rise, and they are also the supplementary lamps for the head lamp main beam.  They will only come on with main beam if the switch is pressed 'On'.  They are not part of the M.o.T. so can be ignored from that point of view.  They are too low to be used legally in any other situation so should not be wired to come on except with main beam, and they are not fog lamps so would not benefit being used in those conditions.

Quote
2. bottom heater slider is stuck and I can't get behind the matrix to see what's going on, really don't want to have to remove the whole dash

3 windows: passenger window works when controlled from the driver's door but not the passengers, all three have brand new switches. window lowers well but raises slowly.
drivers window doesn't work. there is a voltage drop when the raise/lower switch is depressed (don't know which one) but the window doesn't move

If it is the lowest one of the three heater sliders then it should be the temperature control.  In your early car it should be attached to the water tap on one side of the heater box under the dash.  You shouldn't need to remove the heater box at this stage.  Disconnect the cable and see if the slider now works, if not, the slider and/or cable is stuck.  If it is free the tap has become stuck and will need to be overhauled or replaced.

As for the windows your explanation is not too clear.  You say the passenger one doesn't work from the passenger door switch but is O.K. from the drivers door, but then says it goes down O.K but only goes up slowly, so it does work.  Although you say all three switches are new, you can get faulty new ones, so I would make sure the passenger door switch really is good - swap it for the drivers door switch which you say works and try again, but leave that faulty one out and fit the other switch because both switches must be good for the passenger door window to work. i.e both driver and passenger door switches must be good.  The wiring to the passenger window must be fine otherwise it wouldn't work from the drivers door.  There are two relays and two fuses but they are not wired as you might think, one for each window, so the drivers door uses one fuse and relay for both doors but the passenger switch uses the other fuse and relay - so that might be the area of the fault.  If the drivers door window doesn't work at all it might be the fuse or relay or wiring.  You really need to see and understand the wiring for this car.  At this age you probably have a seized motor on the drivers door and a poor one on the passenger side, so they need to come out and sometimes you can overhaul and get them working again, but it is too long to go into here.  You do *not* need to cut any glass fibre to get the motors out.

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4 heater controls don't illuminate

As Peter pointed out it may be the contact strips for the bulbs or the bulbs themselves but they are 24v to keep them dimmer and this is another one you need to see to understand.  It is very unusual.

Quote
5 new speakers installed but radio sounds bad at higher volume (I assume this is just reception but it could also be noise)

Radios were not standard fitted so it would depend on what has been fitted and how well.  It needs to be examined to diagnose.

Quote
6 alarm doesn't work, can hear the switch inside the sensor when I move around but the alarm doesn't go off, solid red light when switched on. its a cobra alarm, I assume it's the factory one?

The Murena never had any alarm fitted so this is down to the particular unit fitted and how well it was installed.

Quote
7 there's an extra long white wire connected to a connection that leads nowhere.

8 there are some wires in the front bay that aren't connected, will add pictures later

As with many second hand cars that have been messed around by people who are not auto electricians, there can be all sorts of horrible wiring 'spaghetti' left in a mess.  You should be able to tell what is original wiring and what is not.  Original wiring has rubber covered terminals with a dot colour code.  Anything not original and not connected - remove it.  It is impossible to diagnose things remotely especially when it is no longer standard, and you don't know the condition of many items.  These cars have edge connector terminals that often crack and loose tension so you get a poor contact.  Unless you are familiar with these things you won't understand but these need to be checked first otherwise you could waste a lot of time elsewhere unnecessarily.

For the M.o.T. just concentrate on those items that are required and leave the others until you can come to a meeting where we can give experienced advice and show you things.  If this still has an original circuit board, they were not good and may be part of the problem at this stage.  It certainly needs to be examined.

Roy
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 08:14:18 am by roy4matra » Logged

matramurena
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« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2014, 10:41:08 pm »

For point (1)

If you remove the push-button you have a bunch of wires on the connector-block. When you cut and blind off the wire that's under the green wire and then attach this contact with a small loop to the green wire the lamps will go on whenever the button is pushed in. The lighting of the button itself will still work as it did before.



Martijn
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1983 Matra Murena V6 (AR engine)
2003 Matra Avantime 2.0T Expression
2003 Matra Avantime V6 Privilege
Joe Webb
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Posts: 30


« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2014, 03:52:06 am »

yeah the driving light doesn't come on when on main beam either :/ i think I definitely have a few problems with the relays I'm using, I'll sort that out at some point and maybe the windows will come back to life!

I had another quick look behind the heater box but there is absolutely no way I can see of getting behind it to see what's what. Must I remove the heater hoses? I'll check again but I couldn't get the right angle to see where the cable led Sad

i've since discovered that a few warning light bulbs are missing.

an easy fix... but I can't find any trace of any similar bulbs on the internet Huh

the twist bulbs for the heater control are everywhere, but I can't find a single 'push in' one???

anyone know where I can get one? (or four)

cheers!
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Jon Weywadt
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« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2014, 05:59:59 pm »

Hi Joe.

Don't know if it is any help but I made a post a while back about problems with the instrument panel. You can se it here:http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php/topic,1504.0.html

Regards.
Jon
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roy4matra
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« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2014, 01:43:43 am »

For point (1)

If you remove the push-button you have a bunch of wires on the connector-block. When you cut and blind off the wire that's under the green wire and then attach this contact with a small loop to the green wire the lamps will go on whenever the button is pushed in. The lighting of the button itself will still work as it did before.

Martijn

As I said before Martijn, if you wire those lamps to work with the side lamps, which is the result of what you are suggesting, they are not legal in the U.K. since they are too low.  The police have started getting heavy on this point here, since too many people with new cars have been driving around with their low mounted fog lamps on in good conditions!

Lamps mounted below 24" can only be used in 'Falling Snow or Fog' conditions so the way Matra wired them as auxiliary main beam is fine as they go off when you dip the head lights.

Also there is no need to cut and join any wires behind the switch since if you really want to operated them from the side lamp circuit, you only have to move the wire from position '2' to '4' on the circuit board (white) plug.

Roy
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roy4matra
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« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2014, 01:59:37 am »

yeah the driving light doesn't come on when on main beam either :/ i think I definitely have a few problems with the relays I'm using, I'll sort that out at some point and maybe the windows will come back to life!

It may not be the relays but these are easy to check anyway without either removing or replacing them.  More likely the lamp earth is no good or the operating wire to the board is not making contact, or the board is no good.  These lamps rely on their brackets earthing to the chassis by contact and many are poor.  I have just repaired the ones on my current car (they were not working when I got it) and one was a blown bulb, and the other a poor earth.  To check the actual cause of the fault you need to test the circuits for power and continuity.  If you are not an auto electrician or don't have an AVOmeter, or don't know how to test circuits, you should find someone who does.  These are very simple cars electrically but you should always know the wiring circuit you are testing so you understand exactly how it works and therefore how to test it, on any car being investigated not just the Matra.  If you don't, you will waste time and money.

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I had another quick look behind the heater box but there is absolutely no way I can see of getting behind it to see what's what. Must I remove the heater hoses? I'll check again but I couldn't get the right angle to see where the cable led Sad

You don't need to get behind the heater box.  The cables come down at the sides and connect to the levers there.

Quote
i've since discovered that a few warning light bulbs are missing.

an easy fix... but I can't find any trace of any similar bulbs on the internet Huh

the twist bulbs for the heater control are everywhere, but I can't find a single 'push in' one???

What do you mean by 'push in' ones?  The heater bulbs are not push in, they are bulbs in holders that twist and lock in place.

When you say they are 'everywhere', do you mean you have found the bulbs on the back of the instrument panel, which are similar - but not the same.  The bulbs in the black holders on the back of the instrument panel are 12v 1.2 watt 286 capless bulbs pushed in to those black holders, but the three heater bulbs are 24 v (not 12 v) and the bulb is NOT separate to the holder.  The holder and bulb are one, and the number as we said before is a 508T.

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anyone know where I can get one? (or four)

cheers!

If you mean the 508T they are available from lots of places, whilst the 286 is stocked by anyone who stocks car bulbs, so why are you having problems?  I get loads of hits on the internet.

You really need to attend a club meeting and talk to those that know, be shown and see it explained because asking here and trying to describe things will always leave a certain amount of confusion.  Your car may not be standard because someone has modified it yet we are trying to tell you based on the knowledge of an unmolested car...

Roy
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 02:16:09 am by roy4matra » Logged

suffolkpete
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Posts: 456



« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2014, 01:13:42 pm »

I think Joe is referring to the holders.  The heater panel lights do, as you say, push in and twist to lock, but the ones behind the instrument panel, on my car at any rate, just push in.  This may be something to do with the flexible printed wiring panel, I've seen the same pattern on the dashboard of British Leyland cars I've owned in the 70s.  Joe, the bulbs are capless and can be removed from the holders to replace them if you hadn't realised that.  Have a look at the 286 bulbs in your local branch of Halfords.  If the holders themselves are missing, try somewhere specialising in British Leyland/BMC parts or scout round a few autojumbles. Sometimes you have to think a bit laterally with these cars, but you can usually find what you need.
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Oetker
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« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2014, 07:11:32 pm »

This are the bulbfittings for the heater switch lights.


The older 1.6 has the valve fitted inside the car like mine.

I see no way to service it without removing the heater.
As far as I remember from my breaker it is 3 bolts but it looks a hell of a job with the dash still in place.

Edit.
Looked at the service-manual.
The dash can stay in.
You need to get out front ashtray and sliderpanel.
Disconnect hoses in the front.
unscrew the 3 bolts and that's it.
looks easy but you need to be flexible Grin

Herman

« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 07:30:08 pm by Oetker » Logged

I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
Joe Webb
Jr. Member
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Posts: 30


« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2014, 07:16:48 pm »

thanks again, sorry for no reply, I've been at uni, the heater lights are working now and so is the passenger window (slowly)

yeah those are the heater bulbs I have but I'm also missing the holders for the capless bulbs and haven't found any yet, I'll have another look on the net now I know more accurately what they are

I do need to go to a meet but I don't have time at the moment, also I'm still fixing a bunch of stuff that I do know how to fix so once I've done all that, I'll shift my focus to these issues.

all I need for the MOT are a new seat lever mechanism, new warning light bulbs and holders, spare wheel and i need to rivet the front bay back in place Cheesy

I'll see you at a meet when I've sorted that out!

Thanks again
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Joe Webb
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Posts: 30


« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2014, 07:17:56 pm »

also thanks for the tip on the heater mechanism herman! Smiley
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