| Home  Blogs Help Search Login Register  
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Print
Author Topic: Snapped aux belt->timing on mk3 Espace 2.0 16v  (Read 3242 times)
FraEspace
Newbie
*
Posts: 8


« on: August 10, 2015, 12:35:17 pm »

Hi guys, "today my Renault Espace broke. I was going in the car with my daddy, we used the car in the morning and did about 70/80 kilometres without problems, everything was fine. In the evening we started up the car from the house, we did about 20/30 metres until a stop signal, then my dad accelerated after the stop and one or two seconds later the engine sunndely shut down on a bend downhill. We tried to restart it but we were hearing the starter motor only. The power steering wasn't working and we parked the car. (luckily we were downhill and there was a park near there). I checked the car, and i found out that the auxiliary belt was half broken (but still on one of the gears, not fallen apart and I easily took out it because it was just little damaged, it didn't snap). So I tought that there wans't any big damage. When you tried to start the engine all the lights of the car and the digital dash became darker. There is also an underpowered battery (64ah), so I hope that just the aux belt snapped and the alternator stopped working, then the car didn't have enough power because of low battery (iniection ecu, spark, ecus xenon headlights, radio and so on). The mechanic took the car with the tow truck because it didn't started (i tought it was caused by a low battery without the alternator.. When he checked the car he said that the timing belt was broken (but when i took out the half broken auxiliary belt it wasn't snapped and it was on its gears, just fell off, my dad told me that the mechanic said that the aux belt went into timing, or that the auxiliary belt broke suddenly after the timing belt as a consequence). I think this is really strange. No battery warning (the same happened also when the old battery died last time so I assume the Espace couldn't warn you for it or strange noises, the engine shut off only, but both the belts broken. If i didn't understand wrong, the valves (or just some?) are bent, he told this to my dad, but he didn't opened the whole engine.
We would have took the car to mechanic next week to change the belts and renew the engine, what a bad luck!"
I wrote this some months ago.
Now the mechanic told us that he didn't open the engine, the car was in this state after he said that the timing was broken and the valves were bent. PICTURE: http://1drv.ms/1WaFD0c . Now I just hope that the aux belt only has snapped but maybe the timing has gone.

I would try to repair it myself if I can do it. I am worried because in another forum a guy told that it is impossible to remove the cylinder head on 2.0 f4r espace without removing the engine, but this would be a problem to do in my box. If I can remove the cylinder head everything would be okay... If I cam remove the cylinder head without having to remove the engine I can do the job
Apart from this problem the car is fine, no problems at all. I have some experience repairing the Espace (I did bodywork and electronic previously, I disassembled many parts). Does somebody know how to remove the cylinder head?
Would be ok this thing http://www.amazon.it/gp/product/B00DEE2IKY/ref=s9_simh_gw_p60_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=A11IL2PNWYJU7H&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1RBM35QWN6RJ65PVWJP5&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=451014987&pf_rd_i=426865031 to lift up the car and lift the engine on the floor and pull down the cylinder head? or this? http://www.amazon.it/COPPIA-CAVALLETTI-POSIZIONE-SOLLEVA-CAVALLETTO/dp/B00DQN9DWY/ref=sr_1_1?s=tools&ie=UTF8&qid=1392111004&sr=1-1&keywords=sollevatore+auto
Thank you very much, I really hope that you could help me friends  Wink
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 04:26:26 pm by FraEspace » Logged
FraEspace
Newbie
*
Posts: 8


« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2015, 10:37:43 pm »

We will see when the mechanic will reopen, the next month. We thought to pull down the engine and see the damage. The damage will be of course limited, the car was at a stop and the engine on min rev. If I rebuild just the head (and replace other materials like silent block, steering arms and so on because the engine is already out) I am worried that the engine won't run like before (the engine was really perfect! Despite 200k it runs like new, no at all oil consumption and perfect fuel consuption) ... Maybe it's just an urban legend.
Will be convenient to replace elastic bands and other bits with engine off?
In the worst case I've found already a used engine to fit (but we wouldn't need it). I tought it with my daddy and he agrees in the worst case
What do you think about it? And other possible damage?

My main question is: is it possible to remove the cylinder head to change the valves without removing the engine? the engine is F4R
Thank you again
See you soon
 Wink
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 10:41:29 pm by FraEspace » Logged
BrianM
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 321


« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2015, 09:36:00 pm »

Hi, sorry to hear of your story. I have repaired these before. It is a common problem for the aux belt to contact the cam belt. The warning light on the dash is there for a reason!
The valves will be bent. You could look for a replacement cylinder head to do a cheap repair.
I think there is a document for your engine in 'The Vaults' of this web site.
Logged
roy4matra
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 871



« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2015, 06:39:59 pm »

My main question is: is it possible to remove the cylinder head to change the valves without removing the engine? the engine is F4R
Thank you again
See you soon Wink

I'm sorry to hear of your misfortune, but if the timing belt has broken as suspected then the valves will be bent as it is an interference engine (i.e. pistons will hit valves at TDC and when the belt breaks the cam stops almost immediately as there is no mass inertia, but the crank does not stop straight away as it has much inertia owing to the flywheel and clutch as well as the crank, pistons and con-rods).  To remove the cylinder head requires removal of the engine.

Roy
Logged

BrianM
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 321


« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2015, 06:11:33 pm »

My main question is: is it possible to remove the cylinder head to change the valves without removing the engine? the engine is F4R
Thank you again
See you soon Wink

  To remove the cylinder head requires removal of the engine.

Roy

No you can remove the head without taking the engine out. I did this without any problem. It is a little tricky with the bolts of the exhaust manifold but can be done.
Logged
roy4matra
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 871



« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2015, 09:09:16 am »


No you can remove the head without taking the engine out. I did this without any problem. It is a little tricky with the bolts of the exhaust manifold but can be done.


According to the Renault workshop information technical note NT3219A, which describes the Espace fitted with the F4R engine, you have to remove the engine and transmission (i.e. complete power unit) to remove and replace the cylinder head.  This is the first line on page page 1 of section 10.  Renault state this knowing the product as well as they do.  This is the procedure their workshops follow and they do not guide them into doing work unnecessarily.  They know this is the easiest way.

If you have found a way to do it without removing the power unit Brian, then that was possibly good for you, but I suspect it will be more difficult for an inexperienced person and the owner of the Espace asking the question here, does not sound to me to be either a trained mechanic nor experienced in this sort of DIY, nor likely to have all the right equipment necessary.

I was quoting the official Renault procedure, and trying to point out how difficult these vehicles are to work on, particularly for someone who does not know them; and it is obvious he does not.  I would hope he will consider it really seriously before attempting it, and will not start something that may be turn out to be beyond him.

Roy
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 09:19:01 am by roy4matra » Logged

BrianM
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 321


« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2015, 11:26:19 am »

I appreciate the fact that Renault say to remove the unit but there is really no need to. Like I say the manifold bolts at the back are a little fiddly. We just replaced an exhaust manifold on one with no problem. I don't like to do any more work than needed when repairing a car. Renault also say to remove the engine to replace the turbo on the dci, I can replace a turbo in half a day with it in.
I see that it just makes the garage a lot of money because Renault say to do it this way, with qualified mechanics! Maybe it is a job they give to the apprentice Smiley

Look at the exploded view of the manifold parts so you can see where the bolts are & as long as your tool kit has sockets that can get to them, then no problem.
Logged
FraEspace
Newbie
*
Posts: 8


« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2015, 04:34:42 pm »

Hi everyone! Thank you very much for your answers. I am sure some valve will be bent if the cambelt as snapped, but my suspect was that it is okay because I heard no sound and I took out of the car the aux belt with no much damage (it was entire, just very little damaged but not cutted in a point). I tought that maybe the aux belt only has snapped.
If the cambelt is snapped i think that the pistons and other things wouldn't be damaged (apart from valves) because the car was at a stop and the engine at minimum rev.
Maybe trying to attempt the work alone is too much, but at least I could be helped by a friend mechanic at his garage. If Brian says that i can remove the head without removing the engine I can try to do the work myself in my mechanic friend garage and, when I need it, ask for his help. Yes, I've seen in the manual that Renault suggests to remove the engine for every operation on it, so... not a very good idea. If you must remove the engine I'll ask to the mechanic to remove it and then we'll see. I think that removing my head and rebuild it (not buying a 2nd hand one) with new valves is the best idea. Valves aren't expensive. In the worst thing I've found a replacemente engine (I think it isn't needed). Roy you're right: I'm not a mechanic but I did many works and mod on my Espace, electronic, interiors, bodywork and so on so I think I could be able to figure out it. Brian I tought the same think! Some people told me that they've rebuilt their petrol Espaces head without removing the engine, so it's possible! Someone told me that his mechanic rebuilt for him his Espace 2.2dci with 220000kms head. I'll ask him details, but the  diesel is a bigger engine and, i think, worse to work on. Brian, could I ask you more details on how did you do that? Have you got a mail, or if it isn't a problem, whatsapp or any other way?
Also on the forum is good so it's useful for other people! From what I understand you are a mechanic: the next time you do a similar job on a espace could you take some steps photos on the fly? It would be great. I can help you in electronic and IT appliances if you need it.
Francesco
Logged
FraEspace
Newbie
*
Posts: 8


« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2015, 03:22:59 pm »

Hi, sorry to hear of your story. I have repaired these before. It is a common problem for the aux belt to contact the cam belt. The warning light on the dash is there for a reason!
The valves will be bent. You could look for a replacement cylinder head to do a cheap repair.
I think there is a document for your engine in 'The Vaults' of this web site.
Brian, are you referring to the battery light on the dash that should appear? Well, no lights apperared (neither the last time the battery was dead, the car didn't start, without warnings). The same thing happened here, the car just shut down like the alternator was broken (battery discharged) and xenon lights and interior leds dimmed. No strange sounds and the aux belt fell down but it was entire, just a very little damaged. It's a bit strange. I trusted mechanic that said timing was broken (i removed previously aux belt and he took the car without this belt)
For the cylinder head i prefer to repair my one, i have a shop that could do this cheaply. The problem is the head removing beacuse i don't know how to remove it here. How did you do with the f4r mk3 espaces you've repaired? Thanks! It would be very helpful. With mechanic's lifter will be needed to remove whole engine or just lift it up without disconnecting all the things (or just part)? Would it be a hard or long work? Because car is now at a mechanic friend's shop. I could pay him for lifting the engine or help.
I removed my Espace battery the day after the thing happened and i left the battery in my box and never touched it: i meausured tofay the voltage and it's 9.4v (more, the capacity was too small: it was smaller than the one which Renault suggests. From march to today i never used it. There's a little chance that the car shut down just for aux belt problem without snappung the belt? I must check the car and see.
Greetings from Italy
Francesco
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 03:38:54 pm by FraEspace » Logged
Pages: [1] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to: