| Home  Blogs Help Search Login Register  
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Print
Author Topic: wiper motor pin out  (Read 1393 times)
njesper
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 122



« on: November 05, 2016, 10:25:36 pm »

Hi guys,

I'm still working on a total electrical re-build of my murena v6. For that I need to know if any of you guys can explain the function of each of the five pins, that goes into the wiper motor itself. I know that there is a lucas wiper robot module, but I plan to not use that.

According to the visual murena diagram, it says:
pin1: grey/black (12B)
pin2: grey/grey (11A)
pin3: grey/black (12A)
pin4: black/black (110A)
pin5: grey/blue (12)

Can anybody tell me, what each of these five wires do?

Best, Jesper Colding
Logged
Oetker
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1048



« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2016, 07:35:08 am »

It's been a while since I did this.
First of al it is easy to dump the interval.


If you remove it and connect  the 2 connectors that are left  the system wil work without the interval and you have only the 2 speeds.


Wires at the wiper-motor.
110 = -chassis.
11A = +contact.

the 3 12s you have to meassure because colors are not always what the diagram tells you.
1 of them = speed 1 it turns positive when switched on.
1 of them = speed 2 it turns positive when switched on.
1 of them turns positive when stop command comes from the wiper-motor and there it it is different from other systems that most of the time turns negative.
That's why you can't use a standard adjustable interval kit like this.


I wanted the adjustable interval so I experimmented a bit with different wiper motors and VAG intervals.
At that point I wanted to change the wiper-motor to 1 with a negative stop puls.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-U2v9R_s4o
Later on I dumped the idea of doing this.

another experiment wich I dumped because I stumbled up on the possitive stop signal from the wiper motor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAq6CY0WL5s

This is difficult or almost impossible to combine on a Murena wiper motor.
So I did it different.
This is the wiper switch on the Murena.


1 = +contact.
2 = low speed.
3 turns to positive if rest position is reached.

To make it work on the original wiper-motor I used the Velleman kit with a another double relais.
That extra contacts are used to make a break contact  in wire 3.


Mounted in the Murena.


Not the most ideal spot to put it.

result
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1RYCuWrqtg&feature=youtu.be


Good luck




« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 10:57:20 am by Oetker » Logged

I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
njesper
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 122



« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2016, 07:36:21 pm »

Super, thank you very much, Mr. Oetker,

I have to look at bit further on your post, to understand whats going on, but I will try to tomorrow.
Furthermore, I will see, if I can do another hack, because my setup is very special. I have bought a box, that makes all fuses and relays unneccesary. So I will see..
best, Jesper
Logged
Oetker
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1048



« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2016, 07:10:06 am »

I still need to make a diagram about what I made exactly, but family circumstances kept me from doing that.
It would things more clear but it will give you a idea what the wires do at the wiper-motor
This year is down the drain anyway concerning Matra-time.

Hacked fusebox?
Thermic fuses?

Regards Herman
Logged

I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
roy4matra
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 871



« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2016, 01:46:54 pm »

Hi guys,

I'm still working on a total electrical re-build of my murena v6. For that I need to know if any of you guys can explain the function of each of the five pins, that goes into the wiper motor itself. I know that there is a lucas wiper robot module, but I plan to not use that.

According to the visual murena diagram, it says:
pin1: grey/black (12B)
pin2: grey/grey (11A)
pin3: grey/black (12A)
pin4: black/black (110A)
pin5: grey/blue (12)

Can anybody tell me, what each of these five wires do?

Best, Jesper Colding


Hello Jesper,

The colours above are:
11 (grey/grey) is the ignition feed.
110A (black) is the earth.
then you have three wires all numbered 12 - 12 , 12A and 12B

On mine the colours of the three '12's are:
12: grey/white; 12A: grey/blue; and 12B: grey/black

First you need to understand how a wiper motor works and in particular how it 'parks' the wipers at the base of the windscreen.  You provide power via the 12 (grey/white) wire; and when you switch the motor off, you cut that feed such that in the old days with old cars the wipers would stop immediately wherever they were and not at the base of the screen - so you had to time your switching off with the wipers where you wanted them to stop.   To have an automatic parking, wiper motors had an internal switch added that relates to the rotational position of the motor.  So when you switch off, although the feed you were supplying is no longer able to supply any power, the ignition wire now supplies the power via the internal switch keeping the wipers going until they reach the 'park' position and then it cuts the power, so the wipers stop at the base of the windscreen.

Now there are several types of park switching, and although I have never had to test the Murena one, I believe from the official Matra wiring diagram the way it works is this: The switch continues the wiper feed through the grey/black wire (12B) until it gets to the park position.  This is why that one goes live when you switch the wipers off.  I will check my car and update this if it is slightly different.  The final wire 12A (grey/blue) is the feed for the second or higher speed.

The intermittent wiper feed works through the normal first speed wiring but is only given a brief feed, once ever 7 seconds approx. to start them and the park switch then takes over and parks them at the end of the cycle; and that intermittent feed is determined and provided by the wiper relay unit.  This is why some Talbot/Simca cars appear to have the same system as the Murena but do not have the intermittent wipe facility.  They simply have a different wiper relay.  (if you fitted a Murena relay to one of those without intermittent mode, it would then have that facility - an easy upgrade!)

Roy
« Last Edit: December 03, 2016, 12:06:55 am by roy4matra » Logged

njesper
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 122



« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2016, 01:17:30 pm »

I still need to make a diagram about what I made exactly, but family circumstances kept me from doing that.
It would things more clear but it will give you a idea what the wires do at the wiper-motor
This year is down the drain anyway concerning Matra-time.

Hacked fusebox?
Thermic fuses?

Regards Herman

I know the feeling. It's approx. 4 years ago, I drove mine last.
Why you may ask?
I had enough of sore old cables, plugs, etc., and it did not help, that my engine is from an alfa 164 - everything was hacked together, and on top of that, I wanted to make some serious dash design changes, so finally, after yet another electrical fail at the annual danish matra meeting, me and my father in law, ripped out all electrical cables in my Murena.  Shocked

Sooo.... I then started the insane task of making a totally new wiring loom, and simultaneously making a diagram for it, making the v6 engine part of this too.  Grin

Then, a year ago, my father in law, suggested something new - and very bold. There's a company making a powerbox for racecars, that make up for traditional relays, fuses, fuseboxes, and the way you design your wiring loom. So that's why I am asking all these questions, trying to see, what I still want to use physically, and what the box can actually replace.

Best, Jesper
Denmark
Logged
njesper
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 122



« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2016, 01:36:34 pm »

Hi guys,

I'm still working on a total electrical re-build of my murena v6. For that I need to know if any of you guys can explain the function of each of the five pins, that goes into the wiper motor itself. I know that there is a lucas wiper robot module, but I plan to not use that.

According to the visual murena diagram, it says:
pin1: grey/black (12B)
pin2: grey/grey (11A)
pin3: grey/black (12A)
pin4: black/black (110A)
pin5: grey/blue (12)

Can anybody tell me, what each of these five wires do?

Best, Jesper Colding


Hello Jesper,

The colours above are:
11 (grey/grey) is the ignition feed.
110A (black) is the earth.
then you have three wires all numbered 12 - 12 , 12A and 12B

On mine the colours of the three '12's are:
12: grey/white; 12A: grey/blue; and 12B: grey/black

First you need to understand how a wiper motor works and in particular how it 'parks' the wipers at the base of the windscreen.  You provide power via the 12B (grey/black) wire; and when you switch the motor off, you cut that feed such that in the old days with old cars the wipers would stop immediately wherever they were and not at the base of the screen - so you had to time your switching off with the wipers where you wanted them to stop.   To have an automatic parking, wiper motors had an internal switch added that relates to the rotational position of the motor.  So when you switch off, although the feed you were supplying is no longer able to supply any power, the ignition wire now supplies the power via the internal switch keeping the wipers going until they reach the 'park' position and then it cuts the power, so the wipers stop at the base of the windscreen.

Now there are several types of park switching, and although I have never had to test the Murena one, I believe from the official Matra wiring diagram the way it works is this: The switch continues the wiper feed through the grey/white wire (12) until it gets to the park position.  This is why that one goes live when you switch the wipers off.  I will check my car and update this if it is slightly different.  The final wire 12A (grey/blue) is the feed for the second or higher speed.

The intermittent wiper feed works through the normal first speed wiring but is only given a brief feed, once ever 7 seconds approx. to start them and the park switch then takes over and parks them at the end of the cycle; and that intermittent feed is determined and provided by the wiper relay unit.  This is why some Talbot/Simca cars appear to have the same system as the Murena but do not have the intermittent wipe facility.  They simply have a different wiper relay.  (if you fitted a Murena relay to one of those without intermittent mode, it would then have that facility - an easy upgrade!)

Roy

Thanx a million, Roy. I think I get it now. I already knew about wiper parking, and how it works in general, but this was more specific. Thanx.

Best, Jesper
Logged
njesper
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 122



« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2016, 01:44:32 pm »

Hi guys,

I'm still working on a total electrical re-build of my murena v6. For that I need to know if any of you guys can explain the function of each of the five pins, that goes into the wiper motor itself. I know that there is a lucas wiper robot module, but I plan to not use that.

According to the visual murena diagram, it says:
pin1: grey/black (12B)
pin2: grey/grey (11A)
pin3: grey/black (12A)
pin4: black/black (110A)
pin5: grey/blue (12)

Can anybody tell me, what each of these five wires do?

Best, Jesper Colding


Hello Jesper,

The colours above are:
11 (grey/grey) is the ignition feed.
110A (black) is the earth.
then you have three wires all numbered 12 - 12 , 12A and 12B

On mine the colours of the three '12's are:
12: grey/white; 12A: grey/blue; and 12B: grey/black

First you need to understand how a wiper motor works and in particular how it 'parks' the wipers at the base of the windscreen.  You provide power via the 12B (grey/black) wire; and when you switch the motor off, you cut that feed such that in the old days with old cars the wipers would stop immediately wherever they were and not at the base of the screen - so you had to time your switching off with the wipers where you wanted them to stop.   To have an automatic parking, wiper motors had an internal switch added that relates to the rotational position of the motor.  So when you switch off, although the feed you were supplying is no longer able to supply any power, the ignition wire now supplies the power via the internal switch keeping the wipers going until they reach the 'park' position and then it cuts the power, so the wipers stop at the base of the windscreen.

Now there are several types of park switching, and although I have never had to test the Murena one, I believe from the official Matra wiring diagram the way it works is this: The switch continues the wiper feed through the grey/white wire (12) until it gets to the park position.  This is why that one goes live when you switch the wipers off.  I will check my car and update this if it is slightly different.  The final wire 12A (grey/blue) is the feed for the second or higher speed.

The intermittent wiper feed works through the normal first speed wiring but is only given a brief feed, once ever 7 seconds approx. to start them and the park switch then takes over and parks them at the end of the cycle; and that intermittent feed is determined and provided by the wiper relay unit.  This is why some Talbot/Simca cars appear to have the same system as the Murena but do not have the intermittent wipe facility.  They simply have a different wiper relay.  (if you fitted a Murena relay to one of those without intermittent mode, it would then have that facility - an easy upgrade!)

Roy

Roy, just to be sure:
110A = Ground
11A = + from thru ignition (power, driving the motor, when "told")
12B = switch signal to normal speed - wiper relay
12A = switch signal to fast speed - wiper relay
12 = internal switch signal until parking

So, the actual power, driving the motor comes from 11A?
the 12's are "signal power" for relays inside the motor?

Best, Jesper
Logged
Oetker
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1048



« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2016, 01:47:02 pm »

Hi guys,

I'm still working on a total electrical re-build of my murena v6. For that I need to know if any of you guys can explain the function of each of the five pins, that goes into the wiper motor itself. I know that there is a lucas wiper robot module, but I plan to not use that.

According to the visual murena diagram, it says:
pin1: grey/black (12B)
pin2: grey/grey (11A)
pin3: grey/black (12A)
pin4: black/black (110A)
pin5: grey/blue (12)

Can anybody tell me, what each of these five wires do?

Best, Jesper Colding


Hello Jesper,

The colours above are:
11 (grey/grey) is the ignition feed.
110A (black) is the earth.
then you have three wires all numbered 12 - 12 , 12A and 12B

On mine the colours of the three '12's are:
12: grey/white; 12A: grey/blue; and 12B: grey/black

First you need to understand how a wiper motor works and in particular how it 'parks' the wipers at the base of the windscreen.  You provide power via the 12B (grey/black) wire; and when you switch the motor off, you cut that feed such that in the old days with old cars the wipers would stop immediately wherever they were and not at the base of the screen - so you had to time your switching off with the wipers where you wanted them to stop.   To have an automatic parking, wiper motors had an internal switch added that relates to the rotational position of the motor.  So when you switch off, although the feed you were supplying is no longer able to supply any power, the ignition wire now supplies the power via the internal switch keeping the wipers going until they reach the 'park' position and then it cuts the power, so the wipers stop at the base of the windscreen.

Now there are several types of park switching, and although I have never had to test the Murena one, I believe from the official Matra wiring diagram the way it works is this: The switch continues the wiper feed through the grey/white wire (12) until it gets to the park position.  This is why that one goes live when you switch the wipers off.  I will check my car and update this if it is slightly different.  The final wire 12A (grey/blue) is the feed for the second or higher speed.

The intermittent wiper feed works through the normal first speed wiring but is only given a brief feed, once ever 7 seconds approx. to start them and the park switch then takes over and parks them at the end of the cycle; and that intermittent feed is determined and provided by the wiper relay unit.  This is why some Talbot/Simca cars appear to have the same system as the Murena but do not have the intermittent wipe facility.  They simply have a different wiper relay.  (if you fitted a Murena relay to one of those without intermittent mode, it would then have that facility - an easy upgrade!)

Roy

I looked up some of my notes and everything comes back.
The problem was that if you give wire 1 the + puls from the interval and the wiper-switch is on neutral, half a short cut comes in via the winding from speed 2.
I had to use a break contact from a extra relais to prevent that.
Logged

I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
roy4matra
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 871



« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2016, 05:30:11 pm »


Roy, just to be sure:
110A = Ground
11A = + from thru ignition (power, driving the motor, when "told")
12B = switch signal to normal speed - wiper relay     ...incorrect (this is for the parking operation)
12A = switch signal to fast speed - wiper relay          ...correct wire for second speed (but no relays)
12 = internal switch signal until parking                    ...incorrect (this is first speed)

So, the actual power, driving the motor comes from 11A?
the 12's are "signal power" for relays inside the motor?

Best, Jesper

No, the 11A is the ignition feed to the motor park system only, not the main feed for driving the motor.
The two different speeds are obtained by having two differently positioned carbon brushes on the motor commutator, plus there is one common brush for the earth.

The 12 grey/white feeds the power to the first speed brush, and the 12A grey/blue feeds power to the second speed brush, whilst the common brush connects back to earth through the 110A black wire.

However, when you turn the wipers off, the 11A ignition feed to the motor park system feeds back to the column switch along the grey/black 12B wire and from a common connection in the switch then goes back through the grey/white wire to the first speed brush.  When the motor reaches the park position (where the circular track has a gap in it) the connection between the 11A grey/grey and 12B grey/black is broken and the motor stops.

(December 2016 update) I have now checked and this is the way the system works according to the Matra official wiring diagram and manual, so this posting is now corrected.  (see wiring sketch)

There are no relays inside the motor.  The relay under the dash is only there to provide the intermittent triggering, and sense the command to initiate that intermittent mode.

I know it seems complicated, but hope this makes more sense now.

Roy
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 06:28:46 pm by roy4matra » Logged

matramurena
Full Member
***
Posts: 78



« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2016, 09:46:27 am »

Different colours then the Murena, but I think the setup is exactly the same. (bottom picture of the 2)



1 = 110A = Ground
2 = 12 = internal switch signal until parking
3 = 12A = switch signal to fast speed - wiper relay
4 = 11A = + from thru ignition (power, driving the motor, when "told")
5 = 12B = switch signal to normal speed - wiper relay
« Last Edit: December 03, 2016, 09:54:59 am by matramurena » Logged

1983 Matra Murena V6 (AR engine)
2003 Matra Avantime 2.0T Expression
2003 Matra Avantime V6 Privilege
Pages: [1] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to: