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Author Topic: 2.2 dCi return pipe broke  (Read 10121 times)
TheJoker
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« on: November 22, 2006, 02:53:39 pm »

Guys,

Last Saturday I was driving around town and the car smelled of diesel... I returned down the same road at one point and saw that I was leaking slippery diesel all over the place Sad  Cry

I drove to the nearest garage and the reason for the leak was obvious - return pipe was broken. New pipe cost some £30 and the total job was less than £90... oh and I was without the car for two working days...  Undecided

I'm just glad it was nothing more serious....

... Like the knocking that they've mentioned. I can't remember the exact wording, but I think it was "Secondary drive belt tensioner" - more known to me as the hydraulic cambelt tensioner..?!
Should I be worried?   Huh  Roll Eyes
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Grand Espace 2.2 dCi 2001 Silver
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« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2006, 09:17:45 am »

That once happened on my old Peugeot 406 2.1td, it leaked onto the undertray and I took a fast corner, all the diesel slopped out under my rear wheels, with predictable and expensive consequences.
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TheJoker
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« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2006, 10:30:42 am »

BLIMEY! that's so dangerous! Being a biker I fear diesel spills Sad


Anyhoo - the story continues....
Last night when I went home, my low beam bulb broke - so I went to Halfrauds to buy a new one, fitted it in the car park... and when it came to start the car, it didn't. I tried several times and sometimes it came to life but just stopped. I also tried the method of not glowing it but starting with the accelerator completely to the bottom... no real results... Sad

Had to leave the car there overnight.... Sad

This morning I left the key with a close by garage hoping that they could figuer out what's the problem. I also asked them to look at the ticking if they can get it running...  Undecided
I don't mind the car being off the road for a few days, but when the salt comes on the roads, I need the car to be reliable.

Annoyingly I was just starting to trust the car. Now its trust is on the negative scale... Sad
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Martin Tyas
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« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2006, 12:05:21 pm »

... Like the knocking that they've mentioned. I can't remember the exact wording, but I think it was "Secondary drive belt tensioner" - more known to me as the hydraulic cambelt tensioner..?!
Should I be worried?   Huh  Roll Eyes

By "Secondary drive belt tensioner" I actually take that as being what Renault call the "Accessories Belt" and not the Timing Belt. The accessories belt is the outer one of the two, is much easier to replace and drives the Alternator, Power Steering Pump, Water Pump and A/Con compressor.
If it is the accessories belt tensioner that is noisy then its usually a sign that the bearings are on their way out and if they collapse then the belt is left under insufficient tension and slips on the pulleys. Worse case scenario is that if run too long in that condition the belt then fails completely and you immediatley lose power assistance to the steering and if run on much longer you get engine overheating. Prior to that you may find that with the belt slipping on the alternator pulley the battery is getting insufficient charge.... but from what you have said about the starting problem it seems that there was enough power in the battery to crank the engine over.

When they get it started if they do find that the accessories belt tensioner is on its way out then it isn't such a serious job to replace as the timing belt and tensioner. The accessories belt needs changing at the same time as the tensioner and can be accessed by removing the front right road wheel, the engine undertray and then the plastic inner wing panel.
Changing the timing belt isa far more serious undertaking as it also needs removal of the right hand hub (after splitting the suspension ball joint and track rod end) complete with brake and drive shaft assemblies after draining the gearbox, removal of the engine cross member, disconnection of the exhaust and A/Con pipes so that the engine can be raised and lowered (after the upper mounting has been removed) in order to gain access to all the timing cover bolts once you have removed the accessories belt.... a BIG job.

However I seem to remember that in an earlier post you'd mentioned that the timing belt had already been changed prior to you buying the car...... in which case the accessories belt and tensioner should both have been changed at the same time as they are both on 72,000 mile service intervals. Did you get any paperwork for that service from previous owner?..... if so it may be worth checking what they did actually replace..... and if they did do a proper job according to the invoice at least then it may still be under replacement warranty.

Hope they get it going..... I wonder if they fully purged the fuel system of air when they replaced the fuel return line?

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
TheJoker
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« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2006, 12:24:44 pm »

Martin,

Thanks for that. yes the timing belt should have been changed, and I have paperwork that says so (I haven't sherlocked it too much as I trust the document).
The "secondary" belt is quiet as a mouse. However, when I've been listening with the bonnet up, I've heard the rattling/ticking noises coming from the right hand side (staring into the engine bay with the bonnet over my head). Sort of between the battery and the engine.
The noise disappears when I get some revs up and it's worst when the car has just started and is idling. It's also quite prominent when driving at low revs.

Fuel pump about to say bye-bye..?

I'm hoping that the problems starting the engine is because of some silly air being trapped - and that whatever is causing the rattling/ticking is either part of that problem or that it's something easy to change...

... I want to fall back "in love" with this car! It's soo comfortable on the road, and every time I crawl into my girlfriends Clio I feel like I've crawled into a coffin...  Wink Grin
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Martin Tyas
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« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2006, 02:30:47 pm »


Fuel pump about to say bye-bye..?


The high pressure fuel pump is timing belt driven and so is on the left hand side of the engine when stood at the front looking in and the low pressure pump is an electric unit and located way down underneath the passenger side foot well of a R/H drive car so a good way away from where you think the ticking noise is coming from.... but then it is often difficult to tell exactly where a noise is coming from.

If it was just a ticking sound then I'd have suggested that it maybe one of the relays as they are mounted across that side.... including one for the pre-heater plugs and a possible cause of starting troubles???...... but as you suggest also a rattling sound and you can hear it when driving at low revs it's unlikely to be a relay.... or even just the clutch chattering because you hear the noise not just when the car is stood but when driving so the clutch is then under load and less likely to chatter.

Another engine component located towards that side is the turbo.... wonder if it's the wastegate rattling at idle and low revs???

Hope you get it sorted so that your affection for your Espace isn't diminished.

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
TheJoker
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« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2006, 03:01:01 pm »

Martin,

Come to think of it, I didn't mention that it was a bit low on power (not much, like with the EGR valve). I really hope it's not the turbo, or anything like that.

Got some good news too;
They apparently went around there, opened the car up, and started it first time... WTF?!?!  Huh Roll Eyes

They've acknowledged the rattling and are looking into it... Fingers crossed!
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« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2006, 01:36:42 pm »

Bad news... Sad Garage rang and they say that the rattling is coming from near the timing belt... Sad
The car should have a 3 month guarantee, so I'm hoping I can get it done on that... who knows... This breakdown has already cost me £160 (recovery, change of fuel filter, oil+filter etc)...

Not very happy...  Undecided
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Lennart Sorth
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« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2006, 09:37:20 pm »

the rattling/ticking noises coming from the right hand side (staring into the engine bay with the bonnet over my head). Sort of between the battery and the engine.
The noise disappears when I get some revs up

Is it a rattle, or just a buzzing sound ?

I have been annoyed at a buzzing sound from excactly that area on my 2.2dci, and it was the wastegate solnoid, which is located on the bulkhead, mounted in a very soft rubber "bracket" presumeably because they KNEW the thing would buzz. 

I replaced it with a new one, and it made the buzz much less apparent, but it is still there - and if you drive without the interior fan on, its actually audiable from inside.

Some would probably call me manic, when I can hear (and get annoyed) by such a faint sound, but thats just the way I am - I guess .-)

Despite your latest post, I'll hope for you that this is the cause, as it would be a much smaller repair job.

/Lennart
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Lennart.Sorth@matrasport.dk
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« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2006, 11:59:55 pm »

Hi Folks

I have been annoyed at a buzzing sound from excactly that area on my 2.2dci, and it was the wastegate solnoid, which is located on the bulkhead, mounted in a very soft rubber "bracket" presumeably because they KNEW the thing would buzz. 

Lennart I have the same buzz as you say its not to prominent but i know its there, at least i know that its normal. I can just about hear it when the fan is running at low speed.

Savo
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« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2006, 01:22:19 pm »

Lennart, it's not a buzzing noise, it's a rattling noise. The guys at the garage said that it is cogs inside the engine (that drive the fuel-pump..?), and their recommendation is to change the whole engine. Now I need to know how to proceed as the car should still be within the warranty.

Still a lovely car though.
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Martin Tyas
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« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2006, 07:14:29 pm »

The guys at the garage said that it is cogs inside the engine (that drive the fuel-pump..?), and their recommendation is to change the whole engine.

I wonder what cogs inside the engine they could be thinking of as the high pressure injection pump on the 2.2dCi is driven by the timing belt not a gear train!!!!!..... so before you start to panic that you need a complete engine I'd tend to look for the likely cause being something other than a non-existant gear or chain driven timing system.... I'd still tend suspect that the bearings are on the way out in one of the two belt tensioners.

But before you go any further I'd first check the invoice that you still have from when the timing belt was changed. The accessories belt has the same service interval as the timing belt and so should be changed at the same time..... and if the job was done properly then the tensioners for both belts should also have been replaced. If one or other of the two tensionsers isn't included on the list of parts replaced then it could point to the liklely culprit.
Although it has been known for garages to charge for parts but not actually replace them... especially if they aren't visible. I know of a Renault main dealer who charged for a full service on a Master van but hadn't anticipated that the driver was a construction equipment service engineer. He knew that the diesel filter hadn't been replaced.... but they were adamant it had.... so the guy said to the Service Manager... "OK, I'll do a deal with you. You get the mechanic to come out of the workshop and show me how he managed to change the filter without a single drop of diesel spilling out of the pipes and I'll pay for the service plus the additional filter he's used, plus the additional labour. If he can't then you waive the cost of the service in full". The Service Manager went in to the workshop but didn't bring out the mechanic... instead he went straight to the service desk to issue a credit note to cancel the invoice!!!

My suggestion would be, even if the service invoice checks out, that you get someone who knows this model of engine to check it again and especially the belt tensionsers.... the accessory belt tensioner can be accessed with the R/H wheel off and by removing the plastic inner wing panel so is relatively easy. The timing belt is unfortunately a much bigger job as I've detailed before.

Good Luck

Martin
« Last Edit: November 26, 2006, 11:17:17 am by Martin Tyas » Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
TheJoker
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« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2006, 11:13:36 am »

Thanks Martin - I'll do some more investigating... I really appreciate your input! Smiley
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TheJoker
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« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2006, 10:27:22 am »

I had a good look in the engine bay yesterday, removed the air-filter and listened for strange sounds. The sound is like a rattling, clanking and sneezing sound. It lessens when revving the engine, and when going down the revs it increases again. It's quite prominent and it hurts my mechanical sympathy.
The sound is definitely coming from the right hand side of the engine (between engine and battery). There's a round-aluminium-type-thing at the back of the engine on that side - and that's kind of where the sound comes from. If the sound wouldn't change much with the revs, I'd say that one of the exhaust manifolds is leaking (causing a "sneezing noise")..

... Dunno what to do - but my super-duper-girlfriend is on the case today! YAY for her! (sorry for ruining her day off!!)
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Martin Tyas
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Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2006, 04:40:31 pm »

The sound is like a rattling, clanking and sneezing sound.

OK... now we know what the problem is.... you've lost the other 4 of the 7 dwarves..... tapping, leaking, knocking and jangling   Cheesy

... Dunno what to do - but my super-duper-girlfriend is on the case today! YAY for her! (sorry for ruining her day off!!)

Let us hope that Snow White comes to the rescue and finds the rest of them today then it won't have been such a waste of her day off   Wink

Martin
« Last Edit: November 27, 2006, 05:12:52 pm by Martin Tyas » Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
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