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Author Topic: Paperwork  (Read 7365 times)
krede
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« on: December 28, 2006, 01:59:14 pm »

Where would one go to get some papers reguarding the murena?  Peugeot? Crystler?
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2006, 04:05:19 pm »

PSA would probably be the legal party to have it... or Pininfarina... or Matra... why?
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
krede
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« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2006, 05:38:38 pm »

I need some papers stating the maximum power allowed in a 2.2 murena.... brakes etc...
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2006, 09:29:57 pm »

I am absolutely certain that you will not be able to find this kind of information anywhere any more...

Besides, I doubt if it was ever available? The engineers have of course considered this, but its probably lost in the mists of time...

The 2.2S was the most powerful Murena version actually type approved, it was rated at 142 HP and could do a little more than 200 km/h. It's brakes were not upgraded compared to the standard 2.2.

Upgrading the brakes is mostly a question about heat, i.e. to avoid fading.

Mine has green stuff pads and these are generally reported to be very good indeed. I haven't tried them myself on a trackday, but I think they will be okay. I think your's have them too?

Bernhard describes an upgrade of the front discs and calipers on his page http://www.technikhomepage.de/kfz/fahrwerk/bremsenumruestung.html. He does not discuss the balancing of the front and rear brakes, which is important, since the Murena already has very well balanced brakes. If all calipers are free, of course! Wink

Breaking engine mounts with a more powerful engine could be a problem?

- Anders :-)
« Last Edit: December 28, 2006, 09:46:31 pm by Anders Dinsen » Logged

'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Matra_Hans
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« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2006, 10:35:11 pm »

Well I do not think that you will get any useful information out of MATRA, Peugeot etc.
However the rules in Denmark are as follows according to an article in the Alfa newsletter written by a head of department in relevant Danish authority (færdselsstyrelsen):

You will have to consider the rules of the customs authorities and the rules of car inspection people as two different things.

According tot the customs you can tune the original engine (or similar) to any level without paying any additional registration fee. If you change the engine to a different type you are allowed to increase the power with up to 20%, if you increase the power by changing the engine by more than 20% you will have to pay duty as if it was a different (new) car.

The technical inspection:
If the car model with exactly the same suspension, brakes etc has been produced with a more powerful engine you are allowed to increase the power to that level plus 20 %. For a Murena 2.2 (not a 1.6 which has smaller brakes disks at the back) this means that max allowed power is 145 HP + 20% = 174 HP (some papers says 142 HP for the Murena S/Prep142 some says 145).
As most Peugeot 505 Turbo cars have between 165 HP to 175 HP this engines can easily be entered into a Murena’s registration papers in Denmark. (You could increase the boost pressure slightly at later stages) Only the latest 505 Turbo had the N9TEA engine with 185 HP and these cars are more than difficult to find.
If the car model is officially approved in a country with a propper testing of cars (which in reality means the German TÜV and you can get hold of a copy of the approval papers this will be accepted by the Danish inspection authorities. Approval of individual cars without technical documentation is not accepted as basis for approving tuned cars in DK.
The Dutch Murena previously owned by Jos with 230 HP from an Alfa V6 is now in Denmark, and when/if it is approved in Denmark, this might be some thing you can use for approval of your own car with up to 230 HP.
I have talked to German Murena owners who had the turbo engine entered into the cars papers with a power output of approx. 185 HP (their did have 220-230HP but that was not entered into the paperwork)
For cars registered first time after 1st April 1984 the pollution from the engine will have to be kept within the original margins, which in the real world means that you cannot do any changes to the engine.

Regards Hans
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krede
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« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2006, 08:14:26 am »

I am building the turbo engine from a standard 2.2 using 505 parts. The car i have is a 116hk murena, but it has had 142hk written in its papers. thus it is good for 170hk without having to pay extra tax...
However
I spoke to the MoT inspector, and he said that the car maker (matra/crystler) has to aprove the increase in power before they will pass it!...
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2006, 09:51:18 am »

I spoke to the MoT inspector, and he said that the car maker (matra/crystler) has to aprove the increase in power before they will pass it!...

Obviously this is not correct... Synsvejledningen is a large document and interpreting it isn't easy! You probably need to speak to a senior guy there.

BTW I don't think your's is a 116 hk Murena as you have an S-distributor, S-cam, 4-in-1 exhaust manifold, and twin carbs. The first three should give plenty more :-)
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
krede
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« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2006, 11:03:05 am »

The engine I am going to turbocharge is the one i bought from carjoy. Its a standard 2.2.
I will use the stock cylinderhead as the S cam is not suited for turbo use.... thus 116 hk.
But the car is approved and payed for up to 142 hk

My car has green/black stuff pads too.... but even though they are supposed to improve the braking alot there are no written documentaition for it.. like tüv etc.. so it will not make any difference legal-wise   (i have only driven short trips in murenas with standard pads so i have no clear reference)

Bernard has some good ideas... but again.. no tüv or other written approval, and it is useless in Denmark.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2006, 05:20:57 pm by krede » Logged
Matra_Hans
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« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2006, 07:41:43 pm »

Krede wrote
quote:
I am building the turbo engine from a standard 2.2 using 505 parts. The car i have is a 116hk murena, but it has had 142hk written in its papers. thus it is good for 170hk without having to pay extra tax...
unquote

You got it slightly wrong: As you are tuning an original type engine you can tune it to any level with out paying any tax.
If you bring yourself in a situation where you will have to pay registration fee again you do not pay any extra tax, you will have to pay registration fee as if it was a new import of a different car.

The plus 20% applies to two different rules (which are in no way related):
The tax/custom people's rules for increase in power if you install an engine of a different type.
The technical inspection (MoT) will allow you to increase the power by 20%. The increase is calculated from the most powerful engine available for the car with other wise exactly the same specifications.

Regards Hans

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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2006, 08:43:33 pm »

I think I understand now... in Danish, sorry to you guys from overseas but this is irrelevant to anyone outside Denmark Cool

Vi kan få registreringssynet vores biler med en vilkårlig motorombygning til 142 hk + 20% = 170 hk.
Det forudsætter at den er født som en 2.2'er med større bremser bagi og lidt andre spordimensioner bagtil. En 1.6'er bør kunne ombygges til origianal 2.2 spec bremsesystem og bagsvingarme, hvis man vil derop - ellers hedder grænsen  92 hk + 20% = 110 hk.

Efter ombygning skal vi have ændret registreringsattesten til den nye motor, men ikke betale mere vægtafgift så længe det er den originale motortype, der bliver tunet. Kun hvis vi sætter en anden type motor i (som Bernhard fx som sætter en PRV-motor i sin) kan vi komme til at betale mere i vægtafgift (men det er vel ret irrelevant med mindre den vejer mere end 200 kg !??)

Må man overhovedet pille ved bremserne i Danmark? Huh

Hvis vi vil lave noget udover dette (f.eks. opgradere til en Alfa V6, nye bremser osv), så er der kun én vej frem: Bilen skal eksporteres, f.eks. til England hvor den kan ombygges og godkendes. Hvis ombygningen er ekstrem kræver det en SVA - Single Vehicle Approval. Derefter kan den genindføres og så skal der jo ansættes ny registreringsafgift. Det er jo det man er nødt til, hvis man bygger en kit-car i DK - men så kan alt lade sig gøre så længe det kan godkendes efter de engelske regler.

Er det rigtigt forstået, Hans?

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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
krede
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« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2006, 07:40:06 am »

Quote
As you are tuning an original type engine you can tune it to any level with out paying any tax.
EXCEPT if you are using forced induction!
Fitting a turbo or compressor is regarded as a 20%+ increase in engine output, even if fitted to the original engine.
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2006, 10:51:44 am »

Quote
As you are tuning an original type engine you can tune it to any level with out paying any tax.
EXCEPT if you are using forced induction!
Fitting a turbo or compressor is regarded as a 20%+ increase in engine output, even if fitted to the original engine.

Is that really so?

So a turbo/compressor is regarded as fitting a different engine. That sounds fair enough... Then I suppose you just need to document that your power output is not more than 142 hk + 20% = 170 hp, and since your engine is identical in construction to the stock 505 turbo engine (though it's built on a Murena block, but that doesn't matter!), then what's the problem really (as it is already rated at about 170 hp - according to Hans)?
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Matra_Hans
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« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2006, 05:28:07 pm »

For those of you who can read Danish I have attached the article form the Danish Alfa newsletter regarding the rules for modifications of cars in Denmark.
The article was reprinted in our Matra newsletter in January 2003.
The author is a keen Alfa driver and he is head of department in "færdselsstyrelsen" i.e. the Danish authority who are making the rules.

Regards Hans
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