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Author Topic: Problem starting - 2.2dCi  (Read 29609 times)
george
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« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2007, 10:15:28 am »

You may find the cambelt has been replaced and not timed correctly.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 05:31:00 pm by Lennart Sorth » Logged
Martin Tyas
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« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2007, 11:36:14 am »

I did wonder that myself George other for it having started fine for about two weeks after they'd replaced the cambelt and also once the engine is running it seems fine... same power etc. as before.
Also, if you believe what's on the job sheet from the dealer they re-checked the diagnostics after replacing the TDC sensor and all was clear so I guess that you have to assume that it's timed OK otherwise it would still be coming up with an incoherance between the flywheel and camshaft positions.
But then again did they actually repeat the diagnostics check or just fit the sensor and because it started then just forget it.
I'll see how I go with it.... at least it's now starting better when hot.

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Lennart Sorth
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« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2007, 05:30:36 pm »

ouups - this reply was still sitting in my browser (for several days!) - good thing I never turn my laptop off these days :-)


Glad to hear you're on the road again.

My 2.2dci had the same fault. Apparently the connector for the TDC sensor is the most probable cause.

There is a specific note (vault:4324A.pdf) that deals with how to replace the TDC sensor, which eg says that the sensor indeed MUST touch the flywheel. I had to print that, and give it to my mechanic, before they believed it. The 2.2dci engine is not very common in Denmark, - only the Laguna was imported at all, and AFAIK very few of those were actually sold - hence their lack of knowledge/training.

Anyway, when my TDC sensor failed, I got the zig-zag fault symbol (and the codes stored in the computer).

Indeed, the computer reported discrepancy between camsensor and flywheel sensor, but the TDC sensor is almost always the cause (said my mechanic)
The TDC sensor is by far the "worst" placed of the two, as it sits open to the elements, under the car, however, it also means it is easily accessible - you can see it just by sliding yourself under the car behind the front wheels.

When our car acted up, it would most often start , but cut out some time later. When this happened, I could just wriggle the connector a bit, and off we go!

The repair kit has the TDC sensor and new wires, that are crimped in place - and I really hated the fact that they would cut the wires and make new joins - but as it is, it cured the problem, and we haven't seen it since.


/Lennart
« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 06:40:11 pm by Lennart Sorth » Logged

Lennart.Sorth@matrasport.dk
Murena 1983 1.9i silver // Alfa Romeo Giulietta 2.0d 2012 white // Smart 4two cdi 2010 blue //
Martin Tyas
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« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2007, 08:24:58 pm »

Thanks for the info Lennart.... I checked the VIN of my car (JE0KL527759757) against those listed as likely to be affected by the problem sensor & connector detailed in the service bulletin but it appears to be outside the range.... mine was one of the last "real" Espace's supplied into the UK and I took delivery in November 2002.

Also checking out the part number of the sensor that is detailed on my service invoice (77 01 475 257) against the one quoted in the bulletin (77 01 474 895) it is a different part number!?

Quite surprisingly I haven't been getting any fault symbols... it just struggled to start or wouldn't start at all and after a while turning over the engine the oil pressure warning would come on but that's all. Once it did start it runs just fine and it has never cut out like you have experienced.

I didn't get opportunity this weekend to drop the undertray and take a look at what they'd supposedly replaced but did look under the bonnet only to find that they'd removed the air intake for some reason and hadn't replaced the spring clip that holds in place on the cast iron "doughnut" on top of the engine mounting so it was just flopping about in the engine bay. What is wrong with these people that no of them seem to have any pride in doing a job properly?

I've used the car a couple of times since getting it back from the dealer and it started OK but still not as well as it had always done for the last 4 years. But then my wife went out in it today and struggled to get it started at all... and had some strange things happen. On the first attempt to start it the seat belt warning light came on even though the seat belt was fully inserted so she turned off the ignition and tried to start it again but the second time immediately got the "Service" warning. She turned off the ignition and left it off for a few minutes to let it unscramble it's brains and on the third attempt it eventually started.

So all in all it looks like they have billed me £139.17 for curing a problem that isn't cured at all.

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2007, 08:55:19 pm »

So all in all it looks like they have billed me £139.17 for curing a problem that isn't cured at all.

Oh no!

It's just not your day, I guess.

Could it be that they haven't fitted the TDC sensor properly (like Lennart suggests, it must touch the flywheel - strange!)?
Or a power supply problem. Perhaps as simple as a semi-dead battery...

- Anders
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« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2007, 11:20:22 pm »

I checked the VIN of my car (JE0KL527759757)
So did I, and my car was outside as well (September 2002)

Quote
She turned off the ignition and left it off for a few minutes to let it unscramble it's brains and on the third attempt it eventually started.
Heh - a true French-car owner - not to be affected by its erratic behavior, - If you'll excuse my slightly modified Monty Python quote: "HA HA! - I spit in your general direction", - and try again - bingo ... :-)

lovely.

As Anders suggest, maybe they also did the wrong thing, and bent the clip "so the sensor didn't completely touch" ?

My garage did that out of their general experience, - and honestly I think I would have done the same. It seems wrong to use a sensor which needs physical contact, even if it is a hall-effect thing.
When I gave him that 4324A note, he raised his eyebrows in surprise, and bent the clip back into shape.

He has however never been trained on the G9T, which excuses him a little.
(very few, if any G9T Renault cars were ever imported into Denmark)

The Renault mechanics in the UK should be trained, so there is little excuse for them not to follow the very clear directions in that note.

PS: You don't have to drop the undertray at all, - the TDC sits open to the elements at all times (which maybe explains its problematic behavior) - just slide your corpus under the car - about under the front footwell, - and remember to bring some light.  Have a look here:
  http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Espace/Gallery1/Med/tdc_g9t.html

/Lennart
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Lennart.Sorth@matrasport.dk
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Martin Tyas
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« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2007, 08:28:47 pm »


She turned off the ignition and left it off for a few minutes to let it unscramble it's brains and on the third attempt it eventually started.

Heh - a true French-car owner - not to be affected by its erratic behavior, - If you'll excuse my slightly modified Monty Python quote: "HA HA! - I spit in your general direction", - and try again - bingo ... :-)

lovely.

The only Monty Pythonesque thing I've felt like doing with it Lennart is giving it a good beating with half a tree  Wink


PS: You don't have to drop the undertray at all, - the TDC sits open to the elements at all times (which maybe explains its problematic behavior) - just slide your corpus under the car -


Easier said than done with a belly like a bay window ..... but I got the car jacked up high enough this evening to see that the flywheel sensor had been replaced and was butted up against the flywheel. However the connector had not been changed... the harness is complete and original.

Unfortunately I don't think I'll  have time to get them to take another look at the problem before I head off again.... just hope that it springs into life on Thursday morning when I have a 04.30 start to Manchester airport and again after being parked for week.... otherwise I'll be more than hacked off after arriving at 01.00 after an 8 hour flight.

Martin
« Last Edit: March 13, 2007, 08:56:32 pm by Lennart Sorth » Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
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« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2007, 09:01:39 pm »

However the connector had not been changed... the harness is complete and original.

Hmm, - well if it plays up again, try massaging that connector. If that helps (consistently) then you have found the problem. 
You can also try to (carefully) bend the legs in the connector, to tighten the connection somewhat.
However, on my car, I think the problem was the wires going into the conenctor, and not the connector itself, as I tried tightening it several times, while waiting for the sparepart to arrive.

/Lennart
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Lennart.Sorth@matrasport.dk
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Martin Tyas
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« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2007, 07:09:48 pm »

The saga continues.

The Espace was parked at the airport for over a week and at 2.00 in the morning last Friday after an 8 hour flight from the Cape Verde islands via Banjul I was not in the mode for it not to have started....  luckily it did but only after having cranked over for nearly 3 minutes.
I already had it booked in at the Renault dealer for this Monday having previously relieved me of £139 for a TDC sensor that didn't cure the problem of poor starting, especially when hot.

I continued to use it over the weekend as little as possible but had to be out in it on Sunday afternoon only to get stranded because it would not re-start at all.
To me it has seemed more like a fuel issue than an electrical problem but I can hear the low pressure pump working as it should for up to 30 seconds or until the engine starts. But being stuck I had to call out the breakdown recovery people. The first thing he did was put some charge back in the battery then have me try to start it whilst he hit the EGR valve with a wrench in case it was sticking......... just shows how often they have seen that issue on the 2.2dCi engine in an Espace or Laguna!!!
"If it isn't that then it's a problem with one of the sensors or a fuel issue" he declared and then asked where I wanted to take it once he got it going because it would need a dealer / diagnostic check.

He then uncoupled the air intake after the filter and had me turn it over on the starter whilst he squirted easing fluid into the intake pipe and it immediately fired in to life. He therefore also suspected a problem with the low pressure fuel supply and noted it on his sheet when we dropped it off at the Renault dealer.
I phoned the dealer first thing Monday morning to advise that the car was already there and to suggest they check the delivery of fuel from low pressure pump..... but it's still in there with no sign of them having actually determined what the problem is yet.

So, I'll have to report again once they find a techician that actually knows anything about cars as opposed to ones that only seem able to plug in a magic box and replace parts but are completely stuffed if the magic box can't tell them what to do.

Martin
« Last Edit: March 28, 2007, 12:05:35 pm by Martin Tyas » Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
TheJoker
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« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2007, 12:22:14 pm »

I can feel your pain, Martin. Sadly I don't think I have any positive input... except I'm amazed that your assistance guy knew that much about the car, seems like you should ask him to fix it..?! Not the abysmal Renault garages!
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Martin Tyas
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« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2007, 11:25:20 am »

I think that the breakdown and recovery guys see more of what the problems are on particular vehicles than the dealers in any case but the big difference seems to be that they are much better at providing on-going staff training as well as disseminating information so that they all have access to a comprehensive knowledge base.

Also, squirting an alcohol or petroleum based vapour into the air intake of a diesel to get it going is fairly common practice. I remember learning to pour a bit of petrol into the air intake of an old tractor to get it going when I was kid and that was 35 years ago but the same technique works today even with the modern engines. Old diesels only used to have mechanical fuel lift pumps and if the battery or the pump was a bit tired it took a while before there was enough fuel to get it going so a shot of a more volatile fuel helped kick it into life long enough for the pump to start delivering sufficient fuel once the engine was running. Even for the modern engines with sensors and engine management systems it can still do the trick because by the time the computer has got it's brains into gear and determined from the many sensors that there should be a problem its too late because the engine has already started.

But it's now the fourth day that it's been in the Renault dealership. They telephoned on Monday afternoon to say that they "think" it is a fuel problem but they hadn't resolved it so could they keep the car another day. They haven't bothered calling me again since... I've had to call them and each time I get the same.... "we think it's a fuel problem but we are still working on it"

My patience is running out. If I hear nothing more from them I'm down there this afternoon with a can of easing fluid and will take it somewhere that hopefully knows what they are doing and can be bothered keeping their customers informed.

It should be just a 15 minute job to put a pressure guage in the fuel line to determine whether the low pressure electric charge pump is delivering the right pressure. They can also check the flow rate by collecting the fuel in a calibrated vessel and can even control it all from the diagnostic box without having to have someone else turn the ignition on and off but most Renault dealers seem incapable of doing even the basics other if something happens to come up on the diagnostic box.

Martin
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 05:29:24 pm by Martin Tyas » Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Martin Tyas
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Posts: 271


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2007, 02:52:18 pm »

Latest news.

I went to the Renault dealership yesterday to get to the bottom of what they had done to the car, if anything. I got all sorts of excuses and told how they were so stacked out with work (so many Renault's going wrong) and eventually discovered that all they had actually done in 4 days was to connect the diagnostic box and determine that the computer wasn't showing any fault codes... nothing more.
So there was no wonder why they didn't bother phoning me with any updates. The guy then proceeded to try to tell me that the starting fault and the TDC sensor they replaced 2 weeks ago were two different issues and that I'd have to pay between £159 and £215 for a fresh diagnostics check plus the labour and parts if any were required to fix it... but only when they eventually got around to looking at it!!
I don't know how I kept my composure but politely pointed out that having a problem starting was the reason it came in last time and they changed a sensor, charged £139 but it was obviously not the sensor because the car still has the same problem starting.
They thought that they "may" get around to looking at it today so I asked them to call and let me know what was happening. As anticipated I didn't get a call this morning so armed with a can of easing fluid and a screwdriver in case it needed a bit of manual fuel injection to get it going I went and collected the car.... needless to say I didn't pay any bills and have instead booked in at another dealership next week for them to take a look whilst I'm away in Helsinki on business.

I just love that car when it's going well but are they a nightmare when they go wrong... but it almost always seems to be because of the dealers being totally useless.

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
TheJoker
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« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2007, 02:59:41 pm »

Oh dear...Sad

How can a dealership be so useless..?! It really scares me.  Shocked  Undecided

Hope your trip to Helsinki will be a good one. Just remember to sauna a lot, and drink a lot of that beautiful beer!  Cool
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Martin Tyas
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Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2007, 01:05:28 pm »

Don't think I'll need a sauna.... because I'm already steaming.

Yesterday I washed all the oily hand prints off the bonnet and mucked out the floor well from where they'd got in with filthy boots and without putting down the paper as most garages do.... then I looked under the bonnet and saw something strange..... my driveway below the engine!
They knew that I was going to pick up the car but the knob polishers hadn't bothered re-fitting the engine undertray!!!

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
TheJoker
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« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2007, 10:07:51 am »

Gets worse and worse... Sad  Undecided

I feel for you Martin. Best of luck (you'll need it!)
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