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Author Topic: Problem starting - 2.2dCi  (Read 29563 times)
TheJoker
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« Reply #45 on: April 26, 2007, 09:57:13 am »

Glad you got the car back Martin.... Sad you had to part with that much money!! Sad

Keep us posted on whatever your research reveals!  Cool
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Grand Espace 2.2 dCi 2001 Silver
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Martin Tyas
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Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #46 on: May 01, 2007, 03:56:16 pm »

I tried to open the high pressure pump over the weekend but either the torx socket headed screws they use are as soft as grease or my drives are poor quality and don't seat properly... or both... because I rounded one trying to get one of the 3 pump heads off and also the smaller ones that retain the drive shaft seal housing. So at the moment I'm none the wiser as to the internal condition of pump. I'll get hold of some different/better torx tools, see how we go then and let you know.

The car is running and starting just fine now and I soon started to realise just how much I'd missed having that car. It was a lot of money to get sorted but it was worth it.

However... It will have to go back for some rectification work!
Instead of removing the air cleaner intake pipe from the spigot on the cast dohnut above the engine mounting they disconnected it from the air filter and simply swung it out of the way.... splitting the fabric pipe in the process.
Also the air cleaner housing was a bit loose and I guess that when they re-fitted it they didn't get it located properly as they pushed it back in to place and one of the 3 rubbber mountings was pushed out and is missing!

Anders... I got opportunity to take a closer look at the fuel filter and cut out the element so that I could open it out flat to determine if there were any particles in the folds but not a trace of anything. However with the filter element out of the way I could check out that little venturi I mentioned in an earlier post. Although two fuel return pipes flow in to a manifold on the filter housing before going back to tank it looked as though some returning fuel could go back in to the filter housing and so could capture some particals even if they simply settled as sediment in the bottom of the filter bowl and not through the filter element. However, upon closer examination it looks more likley that the venturi is there to provide a leak-off back to tank so a small amount of fuel would flow out of the filter housing through the little hole and not in to it as initially suspected. So, as you said previously the filter will only trap any particles coming back up from the tank.

I'll post again as soon as I can get the pump stripped.

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
roy4matra
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« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2007, 12:53:56 am »

I've only just taken a look at this thread so forgive the late input...
The following information is for everyone, and not specifically aimed at Anders - it's just that he quoted what many may be thinking.

I think by the way, that the relatively low price of the pump is affected by the fact that there has been several failures reported of these...

No, it's nothing to do with that Anders.  Old type diesel systems used complex and therefore expensive fuel injection pumps that had to be accurately timed, but these new common rail injection pumps are very simple.  All they do is increase the pressure from the low supply pressure, to the extremely high common rail pressure (up to 1600 bar - yes that is over 23000 psi !!)  There is no need for them to be timed, since all the timing is done by the electronics.  Hence they are fairly inexpensive.

Quote
Bosch had lots of problems with these, and I think Bosch lost a good deal of money on the common rail diesel systems back around 2000. Then they have probably increased the price of the injectors... the price of those sounds a bit silly.

Again not quite right I'm afraid.  The new electronic common rail injectors are highly complex and extremely accurately machined items which have to work at these extreme pressure without leaking externally as well as internally which makes them expensive.  Furthermore, owing to mass production, there are still differences between individual injectors which although tiny, is enough that they now have a calibration that the injection computer will use to equalise the power in individual cylinders by altering the fuel amount and/or timing of individual injectors.  This is why the injection computer has to be programmed with the injector calibration codes.  These codes, by the way, are visible on the injector body, so even if you took an injector from another engine, you can see what code you need to input into the computer.  The problem is having the diagnostic equipment to configure the injection computer !

The very latest injectors (not fitted on the Espace) use a piezoelectric crystal stack for opening the injectors so that the response is so quick that they can have up to five openings per revolution instead of the one opening of the old system.  One opening gave a harsher engine as all the fuel for that cycle was injected at once.  These latest multi-opening systems, injecting smaller amounts in rapid succession give a smoother and quieter operation.  However, you can imagine the amount of processing going on to give a tiny pre-injection followed by up to four more small injections all in the space of milli-seconds !

These are the lengths the manufacturers are now going to, to meet emission regulations whilst giving the customers smoother, quieter, yet faster diesel engines.  Development is rapid as well as complex, and the garage trade is having even more problems keeping up.

Safety warnings: NEVER open a high pressure joint on these new common rail engines especially whilst the engine is running (danger to you) and never disconnect an injector electrical supply (danger of damage to the engine).
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2007, 07:49:16 pm »

I've only just taken a look at this thread so forgive the late input...
The following information is for everyone, and not specifically aimed at Anders - it's just that he quoted what many may be thinking.

I think by the way, that the relatively low price of the pump is affected by the fact that there has been several failures reported of these...

No, it's nothing to do with that Anders.

Oh well, thanks a lot for your input Roy. I didn't realise that they were that simple, actually.

Yes, the common rail diesel pressure is enormous really.

About the injectors, I actually don't think they are very complex devices as they consist of little more than a piston that can move, a solenoid to activate it, and small channels for the fuel to flow. By clever design of the channels inside, the fuel pressure is used to keep the injector closed and to open it, so the solenoid does not have to work against the enormous fuel pressure.

I am sure, however, that they are machined to extraordinary precision and tolerances are obviously very small. That may explain the prices of them, but it may also be that there is just a wide range of different injectors for different engines and models, whereas the fuel pumps are standard parts.

- Anders Smiley

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'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Martin Tyas
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Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2007, 04:57:19 pm »

I finally got around to getting some high quality TORX drives and opened the fuel pump that I'd insisted on having back from the dealer after they'd fitted the new one.

Anders, I've attached some photographs so that you can see what Roy was saying about how simple they are compared to the old style injection pumps which not only pumped but metered and delivered the fuel to each injector. The pump fitted to the 2.2dCi is a Bosch CP1 made in Italy and it has 3 heads/pistons only one of which is shown removed in the photograph.

Having removed all three heads I found no evidence of the pump having started to break up as the dealer had suggested would be the probable cause of both the low fuel pressure and a leaking injector that they thought would be as a result of being held open by particles from the pump. In fact, on the contrary, not only was there no sign of the pump failing mechanically but there was also very little sign of wear on the cams, the slippers or the piston as you can see from the pictures. The contact areas are evident on each of the componenents but no scoring or grooving.

Having said that the pump is simple it is nonetheless a piece of precision engineering that has to be manufactured to very close tolerances in order to be able to deliver the extremely high pressure. However, each of the 3 pistons are still a VERY tight fit in their housings. From a close visual inspection there seems nothing at all mechanically wrong with the pump components. There is the possiblity of course that the springs may be tired if compared to new ones but then that wouldn't account for the starting problem to occur so quickly. If the springs had deteriorated then I would have expected there to have been a gradual deterioration in the engine's ability to start.

The chances are that the only problem with this pump, if indeed there was one at all, is more likely to be one of the things that Roy had come across before and suggested they replace first which is the pressure sensor on the end of the pump.

I've thought about taking the pump to a Bosch diesel specialist I know to get their opinion.... the problem is that unless they put it on the test rig they won't be able to say 100% for sure whether or not it's OK and I would certainly need proper test results in order to be able to confront the dealer and that would cost £160.

Martin
« Last Edit: June 07, 2007, 10:15:07 pm by Martin Tyas » Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #50 on: June 07, 2007, 08:52:22 pm »

Hi Martin

These are interesting photos indeed, thank you for posting them.
I agree it is a very simple device, though very clearly a piece of precision engineering.

In hindsight it should of course never have been replaced, and I know you were reluctant to do so. I think you should go back to the mechanic and tell them. You don't need a specialists opinion I think, as this pump is obviously perfect. First, they should know so they will learn, second you deserve a discount for the new pump. After all, it was them who told you to replace it, not the other way around.

It's worth a try at least, I think.

Cheers,
Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Martin Tyas
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Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #51 on: June 07, 2007, 10:32:08 pm »

Despite the time, hassle and money there are two positive aspects to this saga Anders.

Firstly, I appear to be getting much better fuel consumption. I just filled up tonight and had done 625 miles (1005km) on the tank full and that was with quite a lot of local motoring. It was almost empty so it took over 77 litres but that equates to about 13km/litre. But before you say it I know that it will take a loooooong time to recoup the £1400 spent on getting it to start properly!

Secondly, now that I know that the pump wasn't breaking up I can at least continue to enjoy my Espace without the fear of contamination/particles finding their way around the injection system and causing further problems. I am also thankful for following Roy's advice in that I wouldn't agree to have the other 3 injectors changed at £250 each.

Whether or not I get anywhere with the garage remains to be seen but I will be letting them know.

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
TheJoker
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« Reply #52 on: June 08, 2007, 09:56:50 am »

Very interesting Martin. Keep us updated on the progress. Smiley
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Grand Espace 2.2 dCi 2001 Silver
KTM 990 SuperDuke R Smiley
Dead: BMW K1200R
Martin Tyas
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Posts: 271


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #53 on: June 08, 2007, 12:21:19 pm »

When I get a bit of time what I will probably try is putting the pressure sensor from the original pump in to the new pump on the car. It's fairly accessible without having to remove the pump or any high pressure pipes.
If the engine is then again bad to start it would tell me that it was only the pressure sensor that was at fault and not the pump itself..... and it would of course be much easier to go back to the dealer!

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
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