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Author Topic: Wheels and tyres  (Read 22617 times)
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2007, 10:12:04 pm »

Tomorrow at 4:00 AM we are starting our trip to Germany to visit the big Matra meeting, I am soooooooo looking forward to be there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Grin

Oh, yes... Wish you a very nice drive and good meeting... bring greetings from everyone here!

Will you post photos, pllllllease? Wink

- Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
roy4matra
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« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2007, 12:15:06 am »

Well.. back in 81 the murena 2.2 was "fair" priced In Denmark (at aprox 180000dkr) ...
But the car was never "in stock" and had to be imported through special order.
And..just a couple of years later, in 84 the price of the car had risen to 300000dkr for the Murena "s".... and that was a lot.

Maybe you got them cheaper in the UK because they were only made in left hand drive?   

No it was not just because they were LHD.  A standard 2.2 was approx. £5300 in Belgium in 1982/3 before tax, which was cheap even for a LHD car of this caliber.  They were never officially brought to the U.K. so the only way you could buy one here was to go to the continent and buy one, then personally import it, or find one that had been brought in by someone else.

Even with U.K. taxes added on, the 2.2 was just £6,900 which was a bargain.  So the very high price in Denmark suggests to me that someone was making a huge profit.  I know you pay a high tax, but the correct Denmark tax on £5300 still leaves a large discrepancy to that figure you have quoted even allowing for collection!

Roy
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roy4matra
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« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2007, 12:21:35 am »


I am not sure, but think that on International Simca Meeting in 2006, there was one British Murena with RHD, but maybe I am wrong...

Yes, that was Geoff's converted car.  His is probably the best.  The first conversions were terrible especially considering the price they charged.  One problem is the assymetric design, which means none were converted properly - you would have to change the floorpan etc.  The RHD conversion spoils the car in my opinion.

Matra never made any RHD Murena.  There were two companies offering conversions.  We believe about five or six were converted, and a few have been done by owners since.

Roy.
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Lennart Sorth
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« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2007, 03:26:47 am »

I know you pay a high tax, but the correct Denmark tax on £5300 still leaves a large discrepancy to that figure you have quoted even allowing for collection!

Rancho and Bagheera was the only one really imported in Denmark, and that was VERY expensive (I remember 180kdkr-200kdkr for a Bag II). The Murena was only imported on demand, but there was an indicated list price - which as Krede says was roughly 200kdkr (18k£) - rising to the ridiculous 300kdkr for the 'S' in 1984.

Danish car-tax is progressive, and tops off with 180%  - and this is calculated  after adding  25% VAT and 12.5% duty.

Because of this, it is common that the importers get a large discount at the factories, making it somewhat less astronomic. This is why non-danes can actually buy VERY cheap cars in Denmark. However, being a small company, Matra never gave any discount, so that made them very much more expensive than mainstream-cars which cost the same in the rest of the world.

Today the difference between say UK and Denmark (new) car prices is about a factor of 2 to 2.2, which is caused by the above mentioned discount, and the soaring profit-margins charged by the UK dealers.

I would think the UK dealers had not become quite as profit-crazed in 1980 as they are today, which may also account for some of the difference.

300kdkr (25k£) for a Murena S was a LOT of money in 1984, and still is for that matter.

However, these days, we have successfully got the tax people to evaluate our cars in the very low end, so the tax most often is 2-3k£, which is why they are becoming so popular in Denmark now Smiley


/Lennart
« Last Edit: July 11, 2007, 03:28:23 am by Lennart Sorth » Logged

Lennart.Sorth@matrasport.dk
Murena 1983 1.9i silver // Alfa Romeo Giulietta 2.0d 2012 white // Smart 4two cdi 2010 blue //
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2007, 06:48:11 am »

However, these days, we have successfully got the tax people to evaluate our cars in the very low end, so the tax most often is 2-3k£, which is why they are becoming so popular in Denmark now Smiley

Yes, this is the used car import tax that currently seems to be the level set by the authorities, and it is so low that the Murena is somewhat of a bargain here, but then again... comparing with equal classed cars from the same era, the level is about the same. Only the Lotus Esprit seems to be much higher priced.

The used car import tax is calculated from the street price of the car in Denmark, and this is of course where the difference in prices come from: An Esprit is just more "wanted" than a Murena, being both more known in the public and rarer.

Krede mentioned the 924 below, and that seems to carry roughly the same tax price tag as the Murena here.

All in all, for Danes looking for a classic car to drive and take good care of, the Murena is a very attractive alternative to the more common choices of "classic" sports cars here: English sports cars of the 1960's and 70's, or Porsches from the 1970's.

- Anders
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krede
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« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2007, 02:34:54 pm »

Quote
An Esprit is just more "wanted"
Without ever having driven one, I will venture the guess that is it also a much better "sports car". Smiley

What really sets the Murena apart from other similar cars, is its resistance to corrosion.This makes all the difference to me... I would not have dared buying one, and it would not have suited my needs, had it not been for this.

The low price must be due to Simca/talbots well deserved reputation for rusting away faster then anyone had dared imagine... and the fact that very few people are looking for one to buy.... because very few people have any idea that this car was ever made.
In my humble opinion the Talbot Matra Murena has to be one of (If not THE) most underrated cars EVER!.
The few people I have spoken to who actually knew about the simca/matra cars have ALL been aged 45+ .... as are many of the matra owners Wink
« Last Edit: July 11, 2007, 02:38:04 pm by krede » Logged
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2007, 03:40:14 pm »

Quote
An Esprit is just more "wanted"
Without ever having driven one, I will venture the guess that is it also a much better "sports car". Smiley

Why?
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
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macaroni
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Murena and Multipla - I like it 3 abreast!


« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2007, 04:01:12 pm »

I agree, why?

I've been in an Esprit S4, 264bhp chargecooled, and was distinctly unimpressed. Fast yes, but dreadfully built, camped, noisy and felt very dated compared to my Matra.
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krede
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« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2007, 04:21:10 pm »

Are you serious??!!

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dreadfully built, camped, noisy and felt very dated

I would say this description fits my Murena quite accurately... especially the noisy and cramped bits Smiley

Of cause Its all dependent on what model you compare it with, but the s3 would be the one that time wise is the best match..

But any Esprits has a much better engine... 16 valves.... And i suspect better center of gravity... better suspension and better brakes.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2007, 04:22:53 pm by krede » Logged
roy4matra
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« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2007, 05:34:20 pm »

Are you serious??!!

Quote
dreadfully built, camped, noisy and felt very dated

I would say this description fits my Murena quite accurately... especially the noisy and cramped bits Smiley

Whilst I note your smiley, I would ask 'Are YOU serious?!'

How can a three seat open floor interior be more clamped than the purely two seat Esprit with huge central dividing tunnel that sits over the chassis?  I found the Esprit very restrictive, and would take my Murena any day over an Esprit.  As for the luggage compartments, well there is just no comparison at all and I never considered the Lotus had one!  If you prefer the Esprit, fine, but you cannot be serious about it being less cramped.

The same goes for noise.  The Murena is quieter than a Lotus.  If yours is very noisy I think it needs some attention.

Quote
Of cause Its all dependent on what model you compare it with, but the s3 would be the one that time wise is the best match..

But any Esprits has a much better engine... 16 valves.... And i suspect better center of gravity... better suspension and better brakes.

The correct comparison has to be the Esprit of the same age i.e. the Esprit S2.2 not the S3 which is a later model.  If you see most S2.2 from around 1982/3 their quality is poor and whilst the original engine had more power (160bhp) than even the 'S' (142bhp) these are generally regarded as temperamental and prone to major oil leaks.  Centre of gravity should be lower as the whole car is lower, but that also makes for more difficult entry and exit, and makes the car less practical for everyday use.  The handling should be better as Lotus are renowned for being some of the best, but I would take exception to better brakes.  Those I have driven have been no better, and if you think about it, they use the same rear calipers so only the pads will make much difference there!  If you use the Kevlar pads in your Murena like I do, you will improve the Murena even further, and the brakes are already brilliant.

The only Lotus I've ever wanted was an S3 SE Elan in my youth, and whilst I enjoy driving any I can get my hands on, I would never want to own a more modern Lotus as they are just not practical sportscars, which the Murena really is.  It has to be as I cannot afford two run lots of cars, and for many years the Murena was my only car.

Roy
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krede
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« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2007, 07:36:20 pm »

Hi Roy.
I have no doubt that you know quite a bit more then me ,about a great many things, not least  Esprits and Murenas, so I won't try to argue (much) Wink
My point is that I don't think the Esprit/Murena comparison is fair.
To the best of my judgment the Murena is a fancy but affordable coupe, more about looks, and every day practicality, than actual performance.
Wheres the Esprit was designed and sold as a real "super car" in line with the  (cheap) Ferrari's, Maserati's etc.. of the mid 70'ies.
Thus making for two very different cars, aimed at different buyers.

As for my own car.
The noisy par is mostly due to the car running a set of 40mm dellortos with bolt on airfilters and "s" cam.
This gives lots of  vibrations particularly at idle, but also in speed, witch results in quite a bit of rattles from various parts of the trim dashboard/bulkhead window etc.
Add to this that its running an overly rich mixture/wrong jets, that lets lots of unburned fuel explode in the exhaust, and makes the car sound like a spitfire going down with flames in its tail, every time you get off the throttle and engine brake...

I find the Murena cramped, as I can't seem to find a good driving position.
I'm 187cm with "long" legs (good for running.. bad for "murena'ing")... I cant get close enough to the steering wheel without my legs getting in the way of the gear leaver.
In tight corners I find the seats appalling, nowhere near enough support, and I also have to move my hands on the steering wheel as I turn the wheel as there isn't room for my knuckles in sharp turns.
And headroom is very limited.

Don't get me wrong.. I absolutely ADORE my murena.. for what it is, and I have never for a second regretted that I bought it.. it might be that it is the poor driving position that spoils the handling for me, but my old 84 1.5 Civic Crx was much more of a laugh to drive, and even with the "s" cam and twin carbs, I find it too slow to be a serious sportscar.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2007, 07:51:47 pm by krede » Logged
lewisman
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« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2007, 10:05:39 pm »

Sounds like you need what the murenas should have had in the first place - a decent engine!

If you found one that fitted, a decent driver's seat would help too.  I think the seats were reasonable when they were new but even the '79 Bagheera X I had back in the 80's (which had the velour interior) had worn through the foam on the driver's seats after 70K miles and that was only 8 or 9 years old.

I am currently balancing the cost of re-trimming my knackered 2.2 murena seats plus re-building the foam with replacing the two main seats with new.  The only problem is finding ones that are narrow enough as obviously the three seat layout is one of the things that makes the murena special.

I am lucky enough to have a set of 1.6 seats in good order (apart from missing a recline lever) which will do for a while even if they are in that shabby brown and white houndstooth material.

The Esprit was aiming at a different market but it was much less of a "production car" than the murena - the S1-S3 Esprit was really just a kit car made in a factory with a hand laid fibre glass body.  It wasn't until the last versions that they were vacuum forming the grp.

Some bits were typical British sportscar parts bin scavenging and it didn't matter whose parts bin they dipped into.  At least Matra stuck to Simca/Citroen bits and they were all from the same decade (mind you the engines should have been left in the previous one where they belonged).
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krede
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« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2007, 10:52:18 pm »

You are definitely on to something regarding the seats and wear.
If I "wedge" myself in with a sweater or pillow, to get better support in corners, the driving experience gets much better.
Also I have driven Anders's car, and in that the foam hasn't collapsed nearly as much as in my own.( He is not as heavy as me I suppose Smiley  )
I can't get myself to fit other seats then the original ones.... even if the 3 abreast configuration could be maintained.
But I am having my seats re-skinned this fall (velor to genuine cow).. and I am thinking that some mild reshape of the foam, and maybe even a bit of welding on the steel frame of the seat, to make it fit me a bit better.
I reckon it can be done in a way that makes it nearly identical to the original seat.

engine wise, I have a set of 45mm throttle bodies on order, witch should improve the engine characteristic somewhat.... and I have a spare 2.2 that I will be rebuilding with some turbo parts from a Peugeot 505 (n9t).. that should do it.
But for now fitting fuel injection has priority.

I wonder If Matra would have considered fitting the turbo engine from the peugeot themselves had they gotten the chance?... probably not.. as the 16valve n/a 2.2 prototype produced about as much power as the n9tea in the peugeot.. (though not as much torque.)   

 
« Last Edit: July 11, 2007, 11:02:20 pm by krede » Logged
Lennart Sorth
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« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2007, 11:01:28 pm »

I find the Murena cramped, as I can't seem to find a good driving position.

heh - trust me, you will  find MUCH less space in an Esprit - I have tried, and almost couldn't get in (or out again). The space in the footwell is so cramped (for tall people) that you probably would start thinking of detachable steering-wheels, if you had an Esprit.

I have tilted my seat slightly up in the front (with some washers) which gives me a slightly more reclined driving position (on advice from fellow tall-guy Will Falconer :-) )  and during normal driving, I can move a hand between my head and the roof - and I'm 194cm.

Mind you, on a particular "bad morning-hair day", I *do* feel the roof Smiley

But as you know, my gearlever is somewhat shorter, which helps a lot - but it also helps that is has the choke to the left of it.


One thing you might want to know, however is that the Esprit actually shares its construction with the Murena, with a warm-galvanized chassis, and fiberglass bodywork.
Why do you think I tried some out ? :-)   (back when I ended up falling in love with the first Murena I ever saw in real life ... Roy's in fact :-) )

As a final remark, I have tried an S1 with  mmmmmm lets say not-entirely-the-original engine, plus a monster turbo, giving it 250+hp on a rolling road, and that thing is VERY quick. It has won "Danmarks hurtigste bil" a few times.

/Lennart
« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 01:00:32 am by Lennart Sorth » Logged

Lennart.Sorth@matrasport.dk
Murena 1983 1.9i silver // Alfa Romeo Giulietta 2.0d 2012 white // Smart 4two cdi 2010 blue //
krede
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« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2007, 11:05:56 pm »

Quote
I have tilted my seat slightly up in the front (with some washers) which gives me
a slightly more reclined driving position

I think I would have even more trouble reaching the steering wheel, then I have now, if I made that mod.
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