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Author Topic: Murena 2.2 ignition doesn't work anymore  (Read 43503 times)
brinkie
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« on: August 14, 2007, 03:52:35 pm »

Hi there,

I've got a nasty problem: my Murena 2.2 engine doesn't run anymore! A few months ago I had some kind of short circuit (I think), because while waiting for a traffic light the engine suddenly stopped (and all electrics stopped working) and smoke came out of the dashboard. I immediately disconnected the battery and had the car towed to a friend's Peugeot garage. He put the car away and promised to work on it when he had little to do, so that would keep the cost of labour down.

However, he cannot find the cause! Sad The cable from the igntion key to the engine was interrupted, but running a new cable didn't solve the problem. When you turn the key, the starter motor runs fine but the ignition won't fire. We think either or both the ignition coil and/or ignition module are broken and then again, we didn't find the cause of the short circuit.

What are the Peugeot replacements of the ignition coil and the ignition modules, if any? Because then we can start replacing them to see if that is the cause. Problem is that Carjoy is on holiday until August 20, so we cannot call Ruud for advice (or spare parts).

Another question: what is the best way to run a bypass electrical cable from front to back? Underneath the car along the handbrake cable, or do you really have to take the interior out to reach for the wiring loom?

Cheers, Robert

(I keep seeing things from the sunny side: the car is due for APK (= Dutch MoT) and it would pass without any problem, if the engine would run that is!)
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/Robert

Previous owner of a Matra Murena 2.2 (1981)
roy4matra
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« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2007, 05:14:18 pm »

Hi there,

I've got a nasty problem: my Murena 2.2 engine doesn't run anymore! A few months ago I had some kind of short circuit (I think), because while waiting for a traffic light the engine suddenly stopped (and all electrics stopped working) and smoke came out of the dashboard. I immediately disconnected the battery and had the car towed to a friend's Peugeot garage. He put the car away and promised to work on it when he had little to do, so that would keep the cost of labour down.

However, he cannot find the cause! Sad The cable from the igntion key to the engine was interrupted, but running a new cable didn't solve the problem. When you turn the key, the starter motor runs fine but the ignition won't fire. We think either or both the ignition coil and/or ignition module are broken and then again, we didn't find the cause of the short circuit.

What are the Peugeot replacements of the ignition coil and the ignition modules, if any? Because then we can start replacing them to see if that is the cause. Problem is that Carjoy is on holiday until August 20, so we cannot call Ruud for advice (or spare parts).

Another question: what is the best way to run a bypass electrical cable from front to back? Underneath the car along the handbrake cable, or do you really have to take the interior out to reach for the wiring loom?

Cheers, Robert

First Robert you must find the cause of the short, because the last thing you want to do is have a fire and destroy the car.  One common place for an ignition short is where the engine loom crosses from the chassis to the engine.  It can hang down slightly and rub on the alternator adjusting bracket.  If you had a short under the dash, it may have been not directly related to the coil or amplifier feed - simply an ignition circuit supply which caused the whole of the ignition to cut off.  Or it may have burnt the contacts in the ignition switch.

So first find the short - if it was smoking, it must have melted enough to see the damage, then repair as necessary, and make sure the reason for it happening cannot happen again (like something rubbing and wearing through the insulation).

You should not run any by-pass either without finding the short, as you may simply feed the short from the other end, and create the conditions for a fire.

As for the coil and amplifier, it is unlikely that a brief short circuit would damage the coil or cause it to fail.  A short on the ignition side of the coil simply means the coil has earth to both terminals!  How is that going to damage it?  The amplifier could possibly be damaged, but again an earth where there should be 12v is not likely to be a major problem.  If you had 12v where there should be an earth, that could cause the amplifier to burn out.  So you need to know what happened.

To understand why it won't run now, you need to first check all circuits involved and find out if they are all correct.  You obviously need power to the coil and amplifier, and a good earth - which is not always the case as the galvanised chassis can degrade these.  Remove all earths and clean properly.  Then check that you have less than 0.25 ohm resistance between any earth wire and the battery negative pole.  Then you need to check wiring continuity between the distributor and amplifier, and that the distributor is switching.  For the standard Bosch distributor, align the 'fingers' in the distributor, connect a meter to the coil and rotate the 'fingers' back and forth slightly.  You should be able to see the switching effect.  If it is switching, then hold the coil king lead close to the block and rotate back and forth again.  You should get a spark from the lead to the block.

If it won't work and your electrician doesn't know why, I'm afraid he doesn't understand electrics well enough. :-(

Roy
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2007, 10:36:15 pm »

If it won't work and your electrician doesn't know why, I'm afraid he doesn't understand electrics well enough. :-(

I'm afraid I'll have to AGREE. Electrics is mostly a question about systematically measuring every single connection until you have a positive indication about where the problem is. But to some people, electrics is black magic - they can be excellent mechanics (and perfect freinds Wink ), but still not able make sense of wires and connections.

However, a systematic approach will never fail to find the problem. And here's another bright view on your problem: It's a permanent fault, not something that happens intermittently. My old Espace developed a problem at some point where during acceleration it sometimes cut out completely. I was thinking of sensors, but the car ran well otherwise, so I couldn't do much about it until one day it refused to start in the morning. I put the ignition on and fiddled with connectors and relays until suddently the fuel pump started. It was simply the main power relay to the EFI computer that had come loose in its socket.

Why do you think the ignition module or coil are gone? A short circuit in the ignition module could have caused your problem, theoretically, but Roy is right - replacing either most likely won't help you. You have to find the broken wire first!

- Anders Cool
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brinkie
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« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2007, 02:03:38 pm »

If it won't work and your electrician doesn't know why, I'm afraid he doesn't understand electrics well enough. Sad

I'm afraid that bad understanding of electrics is indeed his problem. Sad I think I should come to rescue, I am not good at mechanics but in the past I got a degree in electronic engineering, so I should be able to work my way out. Wink First of all, I should locate the root cause, i.e. where the short circuit really happened (if it was a short circuit really), then see how I can get +12V to the ignition circuit (coil, module, solenoid) safely and then I should start suspecting certain parts being faulty, not sooner.

I have one question which may help my way into finding the fault: where exactly does the wiring loom follow the chassis? In other words: how can I reach the wiring loom and take it out? If I'm working on it I could as well replace the whole wiring loom anyway! The car is on a lift, I should be able to reach all parts.

BTW, Roy I read your other response, hope you will be recovering soon Smiley

Cheers, Robert
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2007, 02:21:18 pm »

I think I should come to rescue, I am not good at mechanics but in the past I got a degree in electronic engineering, so I should be able to work my way out.

You'll be much better at this job then!

The loom to the engine comes out from under the dash on the left side of the front compartment, then goes through a connector on the right side and under the car there to the engine room. It's easy to see once you get under the car. It terminates in a green connector to the upper right of the ignition coil (a bit hard to reach). Before the connector, it's split in two - one going to the engine, the other to the trunk (rear lights).

- Anders
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'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
brinkie
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« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2007, 02:39:56 pm »

The loom to the engine comes out from under the dash on the left side of the front compartment, then goes through a connector on the right side and under the car there to the engine room. It's easy to see once you get under the car. It terminates in a green connector to the upper right of the ignition coil (a bit hard to reach). Before the connector, it's split in two - one going to the engine, the other to the trunk (rear lights).

Thanks, Anders! I will also try and replace the connectors then, because I heard they are of very poor quality. My friend the mechanic will probably have sources for automotive cabling and connectors. I think I will leave work early today and talk to that guy, I'm sure he will let me finish the job as he is quite fed up with the problem.
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2007, 03:15:44 pm »

The loom to the engine comes out from under the dash on the left side of the front compartment, then goes through a connector on the right side and under the car there to the engine room. It's easy to see once you get under the car. It terminates in a green connector to the upper right of the ignition coil (a bit hard to reach). Before the connector, it's split in two - one going to the engine, the other to the trunk (rear lights).

Thanks, Anders! I will also try and replace the connectors then, because I heard they are of very poor quality. My friend the mechanic will probably have sources for automotive cabling and connectors. I think I will leave work early today and talk to that guy, I'm sure he will let me finish the job as he is quite fed up with the problem.


Yes the open type connectors have a tendency to corrode, and the plastic suffers from temperature changes. I try not to touch mine unless I have to.

I've used Vehicle Wiring Products, http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.co.uk/, they've got it all. But there's a company in the Netherlands too... I don't have the link here with me, but I'll try to find it when I get home. I have also been buying connectors from Conrad Electronic in Germany http://www.conrad.de/, if you can find the stuff you need there, they are far cheaper than VWP.
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2007, 08:50:13 pm »

Got it! "Ripaults" http://www.ripca.com/
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brinkie
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« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2007, 10:38:06 pm »

I went to the workshop today and lifted the car up, so I could inspect the wiring from below.

It's worse than I expected...

First the wiring mess around the alternator. Note all the loose wiring and connectors. Is this normal?











The starter motor looks fine:



Then I did a shocking discovery. There is a molten cable under the left front:





This cable comes from the connector seen in the middle of these pictures. Anyone knows what purpose this cable has?





Even from above it can be seen that the insulation is gone:



Now I really have to consider to replace ALL the unfused wiring.

Two questions:
1. Did some previous owner and/or a Matra "specialist" make a mess of the electrical wiring, or is this kind of electrics "Matra-style"?
2. Is it possible to disconnect the wiring loom without too much cutting, e.g. by disconnecting the cable from the connectors and then make a new cable?
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2007, 11:01:07 pm »

It looks like you have found your problem! Well done!

The wiring in the engine room looks messy and like someone has had to do a crude repair. The original wiring is tape wound all over. There could be a short circuit somewhere back there.

The connector with the melted insulation carries 6 signals, among them the ignition feed to the engine room on pin 6. So the short circuit has burnt that wire.

It looks like you need to make some new wiring; you may be able to fix the engine room wiring and make a new ignition feed, but there could be other problems in the loom if the ignition wire has been very hot. So replacing everything from the three connectors in the front to the rear of the car would be the correct solution.

Some of the wiring in the engine room, however, is buried under the manifold, and the wiring around the ignition module and coil is a bit hard to get at, so if it was me, I think I'd just try to get my car back rolling again by spotting and repairing the short circuit and a parallel ignition feed.

- Anders

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'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Bart_Maztra
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« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2007, 07:12:51 am »

That enginebay looks horrible. Get an other engine wiringloom from carjoy.  The connector at the front is for the lights at the front (if i am right). Most off the lights in a murena are UNFUSED. Headlight, foglights, rearlights, interiorlight.....

You can find the wiring diagrams on the website of Laurens
http://www.matramurena.nl/zelfrepareren-elektrischschema.php
Or from Roy
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brinkie
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« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2007, 08:44:48 am »

That enginebay looks horrible. Get an other engine wiringloom from carjoy.

Do they sell original wiringlooms or have the re-made them? I am not very happy with Matra quality if it comes to electrics... Carjoy has tried to work on this mess BTW, the problems really started when they installed a new generator and three weeks later I had a cable fire. I think the whole engine wiring should be replaced. Thanks for the link to the schematics, Bart!

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/Robert

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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2007, 10:11:47 am »

The connector at the front is for the lights at the front (if i am right).

You aren't, Bart Wink The connector to the headlights is out in the well for the popup headlights. The connector with the burnt cable is going to the rear of the car.
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michaltalbot
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« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2007, 12:40:55 pm »

No, this number of wires is not original  Shocked Original electric is very simple in comparison to the other cars, and absolutely doesn't look as chaotic as it does on Your car. I think that somebody who changed Your generator is responsible for Your problem...
But You can also use the engine electric from Tagora 2,2 it is the same.
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brinkie
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« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2007, 03:15:01 pm »

No, this number of wires is not original  Shocked Original electric is very simple in comparison to the other cars, and absolutely doesn't look as chaotic as it does on Your car. I think that somebody who changed Your generator is responsible for Your problem...
But You can also use the engine electric from Tagora 2,2 it is the same.
I know, that was also what Carjoy told me when they installed a new generator, that the previous installation was a mess. They tried to fix it, but I am a bit disappointed they didn't offer me to replace the wiring loom. I don't mind paying 100 Euro more for a repair bill, if it saves me from lots of trouble later Sad

Mmmm... the schematics Bart pointed to, are from an early 1.6 (with vacuum warning light instead of choke warning light and a different oil level warning system). It looks like there a fault in the original drawing, too. I can remember Roy said that in the past.

What electrical connections are there in the engine bay? It mustn't be that hard I guess?
Thick wiring (excess of 50A) to:
1. starter motor
2. generator
Thinner wiring to
1. generator (for the dashboard warning light)
2. ignition circuit (coil and module), and a wire to/from the Hall sensor on the flywheel I think?
3. carburettor solenoid (but that one may as well go to the ignition circuit)
4. oil pressure sensor
5. coolant temperature sensor
6. fuel level and low fuel indicator
7. rear window heater relay feed, rear window heater dashboard warning light and the rear window heater itself (*)
and a separate wiring loom to the rear light units. Have I forgotten anything?

Where is the oil level sensor of the 2.2 engine located? Is it the sensor in front of the sump? I noticed a sensor there with one wire broken off...

(*) If the schematics are correct, the rear window heater itself is unfused, only the circuit that feeds the switch, warning light and the relay are protected!
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/Robert

Previous owner of a Matra Murena 2.2 (1981)
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